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2007 Hi Dr. Harley, we are struggling with the implementation of POJA. I knew this would be a problem for me because of my penchant for independent behavior. [I scored a 20 on your test and DH scored a 5] But he seems to continually engage in angry outbursts. Over micky mouse stuff, usually related to money, even though we make a good living and are financially comfortable.
Can you look at this dialogue, which happened in the grocery store today, and tell me how this should be done? This is the 2nd week in a row he has exploded in the grocery store. You had mentioned learning POJA skills in the grocery store and it is not going well!
Mel: does a salad sound good to you for dinner? DH: that's fine We approach the produce section and DH picks up a head of lettuce
Mel: I had planned on getting kale, romaine or spinach because there is no nutritional value in lettuce DH: says nothing MEL: grabs a bag of shredded romaine lettuce DH: I REFUSE TO PAY THAT MUCH FOR A BAG OF LETTUCE!!! [it is $2.99 whereas the head of lettuce is $.89] PUT IT BACK!! Mel, horrified and embarrassed at this outburst, tries to ignore him because she can't believe he is acting so disrespectfully over $2.99 DH follows her and says again: "MEL, PUT THAT BACK!! I REFUSE!!"
I take the salad dressing I am carrying, slam it into the cart and say "that's it, I am done" and leave the store. He follows me out to the car with "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you can go back in and get the groceries. I will stay out here and leave you alone."
We had a similar scene the week before where he went into a rage over tortillas. I tossed 2 packages into the cart and then decided to add another. [we had company coming] He pitched a fit and demanded I put back the 3rd package.
Dr. Harley, just so you know, I am 50 years old, have a successful career, and am financially comfortable, and can damn well afford tortillas and romaine lettuce.
Every time he has one of these meltdowns over micky mouse stuff, I can hardly stand him for a week. What do you suggest? MelodyLane: There are two separate issues that should be addressed in your marriage: angry outbursts and independent behavior. The more important of the two is the angry outbursts.
The trigger for your husband's angry outburst is your independent behavior. It's the reason for his angry outburst, but it's no excuse. Your husband should attend anger management training until he can control his anger under all circumstances, regardless of how frustrating they may be to him. My position on this issue is repeated throughout my books, articles and radio show. Anger solves no problems -- they create new ones. I realise that there is a problem on how we commicate and I will work on resolving that problem.
I am confused on the angry outburst comment though. At no time did I get angry and have an outburst. My idea of of an outburst is yelling and screaming but I guess that is not the case? Talking to ML though I do see where she thinks it was, so I apologise And will take the approipate actions to amke sure it does not happen again. Honestly looking back, it shouldnt of been that big of deal to me and should of let it pass.
However,It seems to me that whenever I disagree with ML, that her first commment is that I am trying to control her. Same could be said about POJA..... goldwinger59: If your wife's description of your interaction is correct, you had an angry outburst. It was not simply letting her know that you were not enthusiastic about buying the Romaine lettuce. Granted, she may have problems with independent behavior, but if you respond with an angry reaction, it will lead to either a fight or her withdrawal from you. So the first order of business should be to identify your angry reactions, and completely eliminate them from your conversation.
As for her independent behavior, it's an issue that you have probably been trying to iron out for some time. It's tough getting used to asking how a spouse feels about a decision before it's made, particularly when you think you have the right to make unilateral decisions. But your wife wants to get into the habit of using the POJA, and the more you practice it, the better you'll get at it. Just don't get angry with her when she fails the test.
Best wishes Willard F. Harley, Jr. Hi Dr. Harley, I wanted to give you an update on how well your advice has worked. We are somewhat surprised at how different things are now compared to the past. The changes we have made in IB and AO have had a domino effect and are impacting other emotional needs in a positive way. In the past, my H would blow up about once a month, usually in response to my IB and then I would withdraw. I have to admit I was pretty bad, though.
He has not had an angry outburst since you told him that [I think he was SHOCKED to be told he was having an AO], mostly because he is now relaxed around me. He is relaxed around me because I am not "surprising" him with regular bouts of IB. We POJA most of our spending so he doesn't worry all the time, and he gets to rathole money every month. [he loves to save money]
This change has led to him meeting my need for admiration, affection and my willingness to meet his for RC because he is so much more pleasant to be around.
The key, indeed, was learning to POJA in the grocery store. Our visits to the grocery store today are pleasant and enjoyable. We know pretty much what we want and what is acceptable to the other so there is no longer fireworks. This has expanded to all other areas of our life.
Thanks, Mel MelodyLane:
While there are no excuses for angry outbursts in marriage, there are reasons, and independent behavior usually tops the list. I'm happy to hear that you're making it easier for your husband to overcome his AOs by avoiding IB. Keep up the good work!
Best wishes Willard F. Harley, Jr.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Did you notice how horribly disrespectful I was about my husbands opinions in that post? I dismissed his views as "micky mouse." Amazing how my husband relaxed when I stopped doing that to him. No more angry outbursts and the use of the POJA makes us feel like we are a CLOSE COUPLE now. We are partners.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Markos, WOW! I hadn't thought of that! My answer: No, she would have no consequences from me. I know our PC support folks have that ability as they have periodically resolved issues on my PC. But, though welcome to do so from my perspective, I don't know how my company would deal with it, allow her through my firewall from her work place or home PC, etc.
Bottom line though, she'd have no issues from me.
And, just so we're clear, I have already given her the involved instruction set of how to log onto my company PC and log on as me and all my passwords and PINs to PC's (work and home) phone and iPad. Anxious to be trustworthy and trusted, Thanks, remark
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Fantastic, Remark.
Did you get that chapter of Love Busters read, yet?
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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But, though welcome to do so from my perspective, I don't know how my company would deal with it, allow her through my firewall from her work place or home PC, etc. Surely she can get in through the same access route as you, right?
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Crap!
Honest, I meant no disrespect or implication by 'compelled'. Thanks, 'desires' or 'for whatever reason' does sound better.
Thanks, remark
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I'm on page 58 of the new edition reading it in detail, having read the older edition several years ago. And I have read/updated the pages you mentioned of the Five Steps workbook through page 47. Where did you suggest I read through of LB newer edition before we start? Thanks, remark
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Crap!
Honest, I meant no disrespect or implication by 'compelled'. Thanks, 'desires' or 'for whatever reason' does sound better.
Thanks, remark Us disrespectful guys usually don't mean any disrespect at all! It's a matter of learning what can be perceived as disrespectful and learning to filter it out. I recommend developing a very strict filter!
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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As you should. She should have access to everything because your wife comes before your career. I work for a Fortune 500 company and my H has access to my laptop and I have access to his. I even have a way to see every call that comes into his desk phone! WOW! That is cool! How does one do that without knowing McGee on NCIS?!?
Last edited by Remark; 12/08/14 09:52 PM.
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Crap!
Honest, I meant no disrespect or implication by 'compelled'. Thanks, 'desires' or 'for whatever reason' does sound better.
Thanks, remark Us disrespectful guys usually don't mean any disrespect at all! It's a matter of learning what can be perceived as disrespectful and learning to filter it out. I recommend developing a very strict filter! Go check out EJH's thread tonight here on MB101. Notice how the instinct is for the person to argue that they are not being disrespectful. And notice how it's not helpful at all. If all we ever do is prove that we didn't mean to hurt, we'll lose our marriages. Ouch? No, no, let me explain.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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But, though welcome to do so from my perspective, I don't know how my company would deal with it, allow her through my firewall from her work place or home PC, etc. Surely she can get in through the same access route as you, right? I'm not sure what that means.........'access route'. Understand I cannot access my work stuff from my home PC. I use my company-supplied and configured PC to log into the company's network and that allows me to work from home as necessary. Beyond that, I'm not savvy enough to know how one would use PCANYWHERE or whatever to log into my PC while I'm on it, if I understand you correctly. I know our PC support people have that ability, but I don't have a clue how they do it. I log onto my PC, invoke ie (browser) and go to a secured website that connects me to our network after I've done about six different things including invoking this thing that creates a random password that is only good for 2 minutes. So, when logging on remotely, I have 2 minutes to successfully log on, or I have to start over again. I don't know how it works beyond that. Thanks, remark
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Did you notice how horribly disrespectful I was about my husbands opinions in that post? I dismissed his views as "micky mouse." Amazing how my husband relaxed when I stopped doing that to him. No more angry outbursts and the use of the POJA makes us feel like we are a CLOSE COUPLE now. We are partners. Yes, thank you ML. Yep. I noticed. I use terms like that also which tends to have negative effects on my wife's interaction and response. And, I relate to your husband as I feel relaxed also and seem to AO without yelling or cussing. At least, wife says I have AO when I think I'm only sharing my perspective as she was hers. Great insight on how the IB fosters AO and vice versa.
Thanks, remark
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Markos, WOW! I hadn't thought of that! My answer: No, she would have no consequences from me. I know our PC support folks have that ability as they have periodically resolved issues on my PC. But, though welcome to do so from my perspective, I don't know how my company would deal with it, allow her through my firewall from her work place or home PC, etc.
Bottom line though, she'd have no issues from me.
And, just so we're clear, I have already given her the involved instruction set of how to log onto my company PC and log on as me and all my passwords and PINs to PC's (work and home) phone and iPad. Anxious to be trustworthy and trusted, Thanks, remark It "Sounds" like you are allowing complete technical transparency. But, would your Wife agree? Her view is the only one that matters. LTL
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LTL,
You are correct. At this point, I doubt that she'd agree. I am just focused on being honest, transparent and trustworthy, period.
Hopefully, over time, she'll see and realize that.
Thanks, remark
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Did you notice how horribly disrespectful I was about my husbands opinions in that post? I dismissed his views as "micky mouse." Amazing how my husband relaxed when I stopped doing that to him. No more angry outbursts and the use of the POJA makes us feel like we are a CLOSE COUPLE now. We are partners. Yes, thank you ML. Yep. I noticed. I use terms like that also which tends to have negative effects on my wife's interaction and response. And, I relate to your husband as I feel relaxed also and seem to AO without yelling or cussing. At least, wife says I have AO when I think I'm only sharing my perspective as she was hers. Great insight on how the IB fosters AO and vice versa.
Thanks, remark
I should clarify that my husband had to accept that his angry outbursts were caused ONLY by him in order to resolve them. And yes, even though he wasn't "yelling or screaming" he was having an angry outburst. An angry outburst doesn't have to involve yelling or cussing to be an angry outburst. With him it involved gritted teeth and obvious anger. Eliminating my IB helped, but nothing would have helped if he had not accepted that only HE is the cause of his angry outbursts.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Understood. I will manage myself so there are no AO's from me. thanks, remark
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Yes, Markos, I have completed all of Chapt 1 on Selfpsh Demands. Four rules for engagement. (1) Set negotiating ground rules to keep it safe and pleasant (2) Identify the issue from both perspectives (3) Brainstrom with abandon (4) don't settle for any alternbative solution that doesn't accomplish POJA. I'm ready for the test.
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Marcos,
I am reading on in LB ON Disrespectful Judgements as I look forward to hearing back from you. Thx, Remark
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Hi, Remark, I am reading, too, and will get back to you soon.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Excellent. Thanks BTW, I am out of town 'til Sunday night attending daughter's college graduation. May not be able to get back to you until Sunday night. Thanks, Remark
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