(((Hugs))) I remember how hard it is going through the holidays, wanting the joy and peace you see on TV, and home life can be so different. Think of some things you can do this weekend to set your family up for success. Some fun, light FC time walking or driving around the neighbor looking at lights, depending on the temperature, hot cocoa in hand. That would be fun for UA, too! Plan something fun for New Years' together, it will make deposits every time someone asks what you're doing and you tell them about it.

I've heard about Remark's plan, sounds like he needs more support in it from others, and I hope he will get it. What is your plan? You sound stressed, do you work? Do you get some time off this week, with the kids off? How can you get some support in such a tough time?

Are you in contact with Dr. Harley?

Have you asked him about the classmates.com?

Yes, we're in contact with Dr. Harley. He offers great advice but is not terribly available for the minutia. Of course, it's the holidays, too. I'm sure the man has a life, and an enviable happy marriage.

I did ask Remark about Classmates.com. At first, he said he didn't sign up for it, that it's just junk mail. But that's not true because when I clicked on the link, it took me into it with his profile/password already loaded. It also had his school information already selected, which it doesn't have by default. I know this because when I tried to go into it on my own, it doesn't take you anywhere until you provide the school and profile information.

Then he claimed he did it a long time ago and didn't remember doing it. I tired of the game at that point.

I mentioned that I couldn't see his "sent" emails. His said they should be there, unless he "somehow" has it set up to not save them. I get a lot of "I don't know" responses from him whenever I ask him questions.

Thanks for your support, New. I do have a job, school just finished for the semester. It was very stressful for a bit, but that should settle down now, at least until school starts again.

I'm going to do some things over the holidays that I find enjoyable, even if it's just getting out and about. My son is a good source of joy for me, but most likely it won't be with my H. Remark and I have completely lost any positive connection, and until he stops his LB's, that's not going to change. I do have wonderful family in town and will see them throughout.

Glad you are taking care of yourself. This is a busy time but more people should be back next week.

I could use some feedback on something, please.

First some background: Remark and I are VERY different in regards to organization and structure. I'm not a neat-freak by any sense of the imagination, but I'm a firm believe in the old adage, "A stitch in time saves nine." Remark lives in a manner that drives me crazy. For example, he spent 45 minutes last week looking for his badge for work because he had unconsciously put it in a drawer where it didn't belong. A couple months ago, he lost his car keys when he was out of town and had to spend $400 on a locksmith. Last month, he "topped off" the oil in my car and overfilled it, leaving the engine knocking and dripping oil. Bills are often paid late or paid twice. All of this is very typical, and not at all exceptional.

This weekend, I tried to do a 5-minute project hanging a coat-rack in my son's room. When I went to get the drill from the workbench, the key wasn't with it. When I looked in the screw drawer where the extra keys are stored, there weren't any. I noticed one of the other drawers were missing, obviously lost/broken. In the slot instead, Remark had stuffed a bunch of packages of screws so none of the surrounding drawers would open. If you forced them open, the packages of screws came tumbling out. I finally found a key in the tool box with the screwdrivers. My 5-minute project took 15 minutes because I spent 10 minutes looking for the tools needed. At the same time, I have some tools that I've purchased for myself that Remark isn't allowed to touch. I can't tell you the zen it was for me to go to my tool box and find my drill bits exactly where they're supposed to be. And because I took 10 seconds to put them back when I was finished, I know they'll be there next time I need them. Assuming Remark stays out of them, of course, which is no guarantee.

So for the current incident:

This weekend, I wrote some checks and planned to drop them off for mailing. I noticed the mailman drive by and asked Remark to run them out to him, but to please quickly double-check them for a mailing address and stamp. Normally, I would have ran them out myself instead of asking Remark but I was in my robe. I watched to see that he caught the mailman in time, and saw him start to hand over the envelopes without checking. I opened the door and yelled out to him, asking him again to double-check.

Later, I was getting ready to leave the house and called up the hallway to have my son feed the dog. He couldn't hear me so I started to go tell him, but Remark offered to do it for me instead. I proceeded to leave and was surprised to see that Remark followed me out into the garage. I questioned it, and he said he was going to tell him after he dealt with the car. I started to go do it myself, but Remark stopped what he was doing to go do it then, but was obviously perturbed.

In a conversation later that evening, the two incidents were referenced. I complained that I feel like I'm a single parent of TWO teenagers, that my daily life is chaos, and that I wished he shared in the responsibility of life in a more conscious/intentional manner.

He complained that I micro-manage.

To my complaint, he told me that he doesn't do things my way, that he wouldn't have checked the envelopes and instead just assume I had done it correctly in the first place, and that he would have gotten around to getting the dog fed eventually. He said my way is not the only way to do something and suggested that I should just be happy with whatever help he offers however he does it.

To his complaint, I said that I need to achieve a minimal level of order in my life, and that the 5 seconds it takes to double-check envelopes is well worth it to me to not have to pay fines for payments late because the envelopes circled back to me. I acknowledged that it's not his way of doing things but is something that I need, and I committed to doing it myself and to not impose upon him again in the future. (I believe Dr. Harley is in support of this approach.)

Remark then criticized my solution because it eliminates opportunities for him to meet my needs.

I'm feeling very much like I'm "damned if I do, damned if I don't" in regards to Remark, besides feeling like our lifestyle is driving me crazy. Can you share your perspective on this? Am I missing something here? Is there a healthy way to address this?

I have been guilty of that. I'm sure we all drive our husbands nuts with it. What happens is that we get into the habit of micro-managing when we have babies/small children as a coping mechanism when we are drowning in childcare and full time work. They grow out of it but we don't. It is a truly terrible habit and sucks the spontaneity and joy out of life very fast.

I hope you thanked him for his complaint and told him you would address it.

To clarify, he doesn't claim that I micro-manage all the time, just in these two incidents. Our life/house is too much of a mess for him to claim that. What I understand is that he doesn't like me to have parameters on what I ask of him and that I should be happy with whatever he delivers. For example, I can ask for pizza, but I can't specify when I would like it or what kind of toppings.

I didn't thank him, I did acknowledge his complaint and attempt to address it but he criticized that as well.

I am so confused, I thought he was living elsewhere? Maybe it's better to limit communication to your dates and things of that nature? The things you are asking would take a thoughtfulness that isn't there today, and you are kind of guaranteed to be disappointed. I mean like, if you told us the beginning of the story, we don't even know you all, but we could have predicted the outcome just based on the history you gave.

Especially with all the passive-aggressive behaviors Remark was working on, it sounds so unlikely that he would follow through on those things when you ask him. I think when you two restore your marriage, you two will find other ways to meet ENs, instead of thinking you can ask him to do something and he would follow through. That doesn't sound like the man you married. Maybe other ways to meet your ENs like RC and conversation and affection instead.

Now I'm confused.

No, he's still living at the house. We discussed our next step regarding separation but wanted to get thru the holidays.

We don't have dates. Remark is still too disrespectful for me to want to spend any recreational time with him. I'm confused about your suggestion that I could find an alternative way to meet my EN's. It sounds like you're suggesting I need to find an alternative to my need for trust. As if I could suggest that he should substitute my domestic support for his declared EN for sexual fulfillment?

Great, all the more reason to thank him for the complaint. Sounds easy to resolve.


My DH likes the kitchen to be very clean. I have told him that I will do my best to not leave a mess. But I do not want him to stand at the door giving detailed instructions while I scrub. We don't eat pizza but specifying the kind of toppings might be like standing at the door giving instructions so yes, I can see that.



Try thanking him, it really works! Also important not to discuss the complaint. I am an infuriatingly logical person and am always tempted to ask why. I have learned to bite my tongue thanks to MB. It does not have to make sense; it is a valid feeling and just 'is'.

What is the resolution? I thought committing to not asking him that sort of thing again was a solution, but he rejected it.

Would you reject his cleaning the kitchen himself to his standards? I thought that was a Harley-supported principle (that the person who had the preference could be responsible for it.)

I didn't ask why. Not because I understand it, but because I've always understood that people simply feel/think differently and that that's okay. I wish my H afforded me the same courtesy.

When you say, "it really works," what does it "do?"

Easy to resolve a very specific compliant.

The resolution is to thank him for his complaint and to say you will do your best to not do that again. That he is to point it out again if you are still doing it. How could he reject that?


Absolutely I would support his cleaning the kitchen to his standard but his complaint was about the way I was leaving it when I used it and that was the complaint I addressed. Since I do most of the cooking and cleaning up, the state of the kitchen had become a problem for him.

There is a distinction between leaving the kitchen in a state that does not make your spouse unhappy and cleaning it to his standard whilst he stands in the doorway giving directions (micro managing). That would be the point where I would smile and hand the scrubbing brush to him.

If it was pizza, I would not want him to dictate his toppings (micro managing) but he would be perfectly entitled to tell me that he did not want olives and then I would make the pizza without olives.




Listening carefully and addressing a complaint validates feelings. It is brilliant because not only does it get rid of a problem but it also creates love bank deposit when you respectfully eliminate the complaint. It is a wonderful feeling to know that you can safely make a complaint and that the issue will be addressed

I told him I wouldn't ask him that sort of thing again. He rejected that suggestion, told me he wanted me to ask, told me I wasn't fostering closeness in our M if I stopped. I can't explain it, just passing it on. Seems to me like I'm wrong either way.

I get the process, I was specifically asking what thanking him for his complaint does.

In my effort to do this, he has since completely retracted his entire complaint, claiming that he realizes I wasn't actually micro-managing, that he just said that because he was embarrassed he didn't remember what I asked him to do for the 10 seconds it took him to get to the end of the driveway, because he got distracted instead with his chit-chat with the mailman.

That is enchanting and well done - great progress for both of you!

Lol, your husband is me. I do this kind of thing all the time and drive myself nuts. I bought oxygenated bleach this week to refresh my linens and it's a good thing I did it straight away because now I have no idea where I put it.

Im one of those absent minded people but I have little ways to keep order. A to-do list and night-time and morning time routines.

I wouldn't do well if I was asked to do stuff on the fly, like you have done with your husband here. For example if he was already doing something (like going to check on the car) and is distracted by your request, he's going to forget something. I'm really envious of people who can juggle things spontaneously without forgetting but routine and checking things off systematically is best if you are forgetful.

The mail man thing in particular would be a nightmare because he was asked to do something in a hurry which is a disaster for forgetful people.

Why not consider doing the DS inventory and making an organised plan for who does what. If your husband wants to meet your needs he can do something off your list as a surprise for you occasionally (only things you are happy for him to do though - keep a personal list for things to do yourself, perhaps things involving your tool box!)

The home website Flylady has good night time and morning routines as an example. Since mail and dog feedings are things which happen regularly they can be planned into the home routine without you having to spin plates and remember everything. For example you could have your son put the dog's feeding times into his phone as a daily reminder and make him responsible for that.

Sorry, I had you confused then. I hope you two can resolve your issues over the holidays here. Are there any positive changes you see so far, in how you and your H approach one another?


So you're saying the love busting hasn't stopped as yet? I remember rereading the Conversation is Boring every day before my then-H came home from work! Have you tried it, it can help the evening go better. And I got some good skills to take forward with me.

It's great that he came back and said that you're not micromanaging. And that he wants you to give him these opportunities to meet your ENs. But remember what indiegirl said, some folks are just not good at that stuff. I'm concerned that when his pattern is to forget stuff, that it will make you miserable to keep trying and failing at this stuff. We want to set you up for success, building on what you two are already good at! Does that make sense?

I'm not suggesting to substitute out the need altogether, just right now to focus on the top intimate ENs - affection, conversation, recreational companionship, and sf. Checking mail before it goes out would fall under domestic support, right? The domestic support inventory will help you two each do the things you find most important, and like indie said, he can surprise you with something in a good way.

It's not progress. It has been his M.O. for 20 years. Part of his defensiveness, or his abuse, to berate me until I accept responsibility for his accusation, and then act contrite, suggest my behavior was actually a good thing and request that I continue to do it in the future. Only recently have I become fully aware of the pattern. Of course, you couldn't possibly know that and it would appear like a good thing from an outside perspective.

Are you in contact with Dr. Harley?

Yes, we are, though mostly my H is. Dr. Harley has asked him to drop him a note everyday regarding how our interactions go. We've both asked him about the coaching program.