Oh, I know that. I'm just saying she believes she does. It's part of the fog. Dr. Harley said if he asked her why she was hurting me even though she said she cared about me she'd just say she tries not to think about it.

In fact, my response to her was, "You're right, I don't believe you."

"I don't know" should be in the top 5 phrases of wayward wife vernacular because I heard this phrase so many times it boggles the mind. They "don't know" about all sorts of things they are extremely opinionated about. "I don't know" may as well be translated to "I am in the fog" or "I would rather not tell you the truth".

What she means is that anything other than something that made her/her affair partner suffer was "honorable". This discussion ain't a battle you can win.

+1

This is akin to her holding a gun to your head and saying "You might not believe me, but I really value your life." Fog machine activated.

She sincerely wanted you to believe that lie. Sincerity is demonstrated by actions, not by the empty words of a wayward.

Maybe that's why people have affairs, they put an emotion ahead of Jesus Christ in their marriage.

People have affairs because they have poor boundaries around the opposite sex and have [usually] fallen out of love in their marriage.

Let me put this another way. Affairs are much more tempting when a spouse has fallen out of love. If that person also has poor boundaries around the opposite sex, that leaves them wide open for someone else to meet their needs. Before they know it, they fall in love with some new person and their feelings overcome their intellect. An affair operates the same way as an alcohol addiction. It is a powerful addiction.

The above describes the typical affair. The unusual ones are the ones who are out trolling for action. They are the exception and represent a small minority.

Kave,

I don't know of any way to make sure a person is never going to have a weak moment or valley in their spiritual obedience, ever. In fact, as a human, you should probably bank those things happening, a lot.

A Christian soldier doesn't wear body armor because he doesn't believe that God can protect him from harm, he wears it because it's effective at stopping bullets and shrapnel.

We don't say MB your marriage because we don't think Jesus is enough to prevent adultery, we say MB your marriage because it's effective at preventing both spouses from being tempted to stray.

As a betrayed spouse that's a devout Christian and married another devout Christian, I'm terrified of the idea of trusting another human's Christian fidelity to prevent this disaster from happening again. I want every advantage I can get now because I know that this sort of thing happens to Christian couples just as much as non-believers. And besides, a passionate marriage is more fun anyways.

King David committed adultery (and murdered his lover's husband!) and he was said to be a man after God's own heart. Food for thought.

Beautifully put, axslinger!!

Because he repented. He is a symbolic representation of the grace of God. The death of his son is a picture of the sacrifice of God's Son, Christ for the sins of man.

EDIT: AS with Christ, King David's son was innocent. He had committed no sin. He died for the sins of others.

Here is a good song about vows and falling out of love in marriage. It was sung by George Jones and Tammy Wynett, country music stars (I think their first performance after their divorce)

[video:youtube]watch?v=Q9KniULwvjE[/video]

I don't know why, but that made me laugh uncontrollably. I needed a good laugh and smile after these last few weeks!

BTW, I had a, what I think, was a very good job interview yesterday! Hope I get the job. I was the first to be interviewed and I had the whole room engaged with me (they had the whole department there as part of the interview), and showing enthusiasm and laughing, etc. Was amazingly able to focus completely during the interview and "forget" the other stuff going on. Hit me hard when I left the building, though.

Also, I actually had a good day today with my wife. We went and got a u-cut christmas tree with our son. No arguing, we negotiated a Christmas tree that worked for all three of us, she actually offered to do something (get me a cocoa or cider), let me do some nice things for her (put wiper fluid, fuel, and air in tires in her car). She thanked me and said it was really nice. She thanked me for the good job I did with the Christmas tree lights. She was almost her old self with me.

Good job on the job interview. I know what you mean with things hitting you later. My job requires a lot of communication and attention to detail so all of the home life had to be compartmentalized when my WW was still in the home. Not a problem when you're busy but I had a few 3+ hour drives between company locations that were not much fun.

Good to hear that Christmas stuff is going well. Dr. Harley posted an article about marital conflict during the holidays that might be worth checking out to help you steer clear of trouble.

Thanks. Yeah, my current job requires a lot of communication and attention to detail, teaching all day classes (to afults). Last week was very tough to focus, and my boss so kind, he found another teacher to cover my class and let me take the rest of the week as PTO. I'm hopeful I'm in a better place on Monday than last week. I feel I am.

Adults, not afults...

Just a thought for kaveman: Ephesians 5 talks about loving our brides like Christ loves the church...and then goes on to list all sorts of love-building activity that makes the person feel loved, appreciated, and romantically pursued. It also offers the same advice to the wives. Dr. Harley is a believer and has built his curriculum of this and other Scriptures, but he is hoping to encourage couples that aren't believers to also build and sustain their marriages to the best of their abilities. So, while I agree that Jesus's love for us is the model of sacrificial and even romantic love, I also think that much of the concept of sacrificing joyfully for the love of the other person is present in the more neutral language of the MB paradigm. I see the marriage vow like baptism: it is a public commitment to another person and to the authority of a community. The particular community for every marriage is between the two marriage partners; the Christian marriage is between the two marriage partners, God, and the Christian community. I don't know a person who hasn't broken their vows at some point (not ALL of them, hopefully).

WW emailed me this morning!

More property demands, and in fact she's asking for more now. She's angry about me using her email address for Plan A emails, saying it was given only for business communication. Asks me to stop offering favors, says she's doing just fine on her own. (Ha!). Asks me to pay back her parents for the money she borrowed if I won't sign the title over on the vehicle she took.

Tells me she could never trust me again after snooping and exposure and asks me to cooperate with D for the sake of our families. Also more gas lighting about the A.

So clueless, her family would be devastated and hurt by a divorce, they are already very upset about our separation.

Very angry tone overall. She hates that I won't just concede. Says something about "what she'll ask the judge for" but there's no filing yet and I know she can't afford a lawyer right now so it's an empty threat to me.

There is some blame assignment to both of us about problems in the marriage (mostly to me), but her general attitude is that we're too damaged to be repaired.

I'm wondering if she and OM are possibly in rough waters or finished and she's in withdrawal from him? Thoughts?

Axslinger,

I sense that my WW is only just now getting over her anger over exposure, and it's been 5 months now.

From what I've read of former WW's, your being nice is causing conflicts in her mind. She wants you to give up, because your care is making her feel bad. She can't understand why you're being nice, so she's trying to convince herself it's a ploy. Keep it up.

Ax, same boat here, though exposure was only 2 weeks ago. Tells me she could never trust me again after snooping and exposure and asks me to cooperate with separation, and that she really thinks she wants a divorce, and has no connection with me as friend, lover, or husband because of snooping/exposure. That I was trying to set everyone against her. She tells me her family is devastated because of exposure (not what she'd done, of course, and that they are taking my side completely because they don't know what she's suffered through in our marriage).

There is some blame assignment both ways, and she's admitted her lack of boundaries was part of the problem, but the anger and resentment are too much for her. She told our grandma that she doesn't love me right now. She's told me she hates me (again for exposure).

My WW held these attitudes while still contacting OM, though they did seem to be on rough waters. She's actually seemed to lighten up a little since I've not seen any more contact, and OM sent her a string of abusive emails/texts.

I can't tell you if they are on rough waters, it's certainly possible, is the primary reason for exposure (I love the piece of Ephesians 5 mentioned above: Ephesians 5:13="But everything exposed by the light becomes visible�and everything that is illuminated becomes a light." Our exposure has made things visible, and what is now visible has become a light (a hope) for us that logic and reason will prevail.

She could be in withdrawal and feeling more angry and deserving of more too, as she's feeling more hurt, loss, and guilt than before, and needing to relieve the cognitive dissonance by blaming you more.

That's good to hear, but I hope my WW doesn't take 5 months. As it appears my WW has ended, at least temporarily, her affair (in a rather abusive and explosive manner on the OM's part), unlike in your unfortunate situation, I hope it's sooner. I hope it's sooner for Ax, too. You both (and your wives) are both in my thoughts and prayers.

I agree, Ax, you being nice is causing her conflict. I know my wife loathes herself right now and can't understand why anyone would want to love her, so doesn't believe anyone does, so she "has to" think it's a trick, or some kind of manipulation. If you are consistant with it, it becomes harder and harder for her to believe it's a trick, rather than reality. She won't be able to tell herself that someone who really doesn't care and is trying to manipulate her will continue to put up with what she's doing to you.

Being nice is causing conflict, and I think the more conflict in that way you can create is a good thing. Just more light shining on the situation. You are showing, proving, illuminating that you care, and it will help her see more clearly, eventually.