I exercise 3 times a week on average and every time I exercise it most definitely helps... but it doesn't do enough to fight the emotional turmoil.

I had found these stats (which seem to be confirmed)
- St. John's wort has tested just as effective for depression relief as Prozac and more effective than Zoloft.
- 5-HTP can raise serotonin levels 540%, compared to Paxil's 450% and Prozac's
150 %- 250%. It also outperformed the SSRI Luvox as an antidepressant, 68 percent to 62 percent
- 5-HTP, is associated with 0% sexual dysfunction, while the SSRIs are associated with 50-70% sexual dysfunction. In several studies both St. John's wort and 5-HTP have had fewer side effects than the placebos!

Anyway... will be talking to doctor. I have 5-htp (haven't used it yet) and will see if he would even suggest it over St John's or over prescription based. In Europe 5-htp has been used a lot. In the end everything I have read says it is something you may have to simply try as they both are known effective with mild depression, but one may work better depending on the person. Plus the St John's is an SSRI and can have some side effects... but normally less than the prescription SSRIs.

I am confused. So when did she agree to end all OS friendships and her relationship with the coach? I feel like you are now minimizing the situation. If this has all taken place then you must have a fabulous marriage with no problems? So why go to any MC?

REading books is not a plan. Having a plan is a plan. But since your marriage is perfect, it seems like you need no plan.


You need to read the newsletter about complaints. Suffering in silence and proferring pretend "trust" is not a MB concept.

NO.. marriage is absolutely not fabulous. There is a spirit of unwillingness or resistance on my wife's part and I don't know why. There is no in-love feelings on either side at the moment.

In regards to OS friendships...

- We know she doesn't think OS friends are bad or wrong. Can't change her thinking and not trying. Can only make requests.

- Through requests she finally did stop communicating as friends with 2 of the OS friends. Although there has been one or two emails I have see that were strictly work related with OS consultants. This has been since middle part of year.

- I expect my wife to have to speak with swim coach or soccer coach or children's teachers... I am NOT minimizing... I just don't think MB is saying you don't speak to the OS. But does speak about building friendships with OS. Which is why it bothered me with the coach... she had started building a friendship and I requested she limit relationship before it grew as I could tell he was taking a liking to her and I just was uncomfortable with it. She said she was actively adjusting. I have seen some of these changes and the times I could witness it she had minimized the time... even though she doesn't really agree she was doing anything wrong. But my understanding is she doesn't have to agree it is right or wrong, but agree to protect. And I do see her working on this... it is just an area that she is resistant to as she doesn't see the problem.

- I sense you want me to tell her to never speak with him again or potentially any OS person she comes in contact with. Her friendship was at the level of just talking about swim team and gaining general knowledge about his kids / work. Same things I usually learn about a coach / teacher. My main issue with him was it was starting to build or be more time than made me comfortable and it was clear he was starting to be drawn to her. If it wasn't building, he wasn't drawn to her, and it was limited in time and to just normal things I would run into then I would have said nothing. I am not minimizing OS friends... however I have no problem with appropriate OS interaction that is protective of our marriage.

Melody... I get the sarcasm and sorry if I seem thick to you or not getting it... I do not think were are perfect and believe we are in great danger of a failed marriage.

If I don't read / listen to MB material then I wouldn't have the needed skills and knowledge to even have a plan. So I get that reading alone isn't the plan. So let's try again.

My Plan,

- Continue educating myself and putting into practice MB concepts. (No LB's meet her EM and work on filling Love Bank)
- Continue making complaints or requests when needed.
- Be ready and willing to POJA with her and lead by example on how to POJA.
- If I see any OS relationship building I request she stop and keep on front burner.
- Do NOT try to educate her... would be DJ.
- Demonstrate MB to my wife through my actions.
- Continue snooping, monitoring emails, texts, calls, gps. (Only thing I can't monitor is work office phone.
- Do not try to make her do anything as that is a demand.

I can only control myself and make my requests. My leverage will be me hopefully building Love Bank enough to where she is in love and more willing / agreeable and less resistant.

I am reading everything you and others point me to as well as what I research myself here. And I do agree. I am NOT being silent.

I do welcome your comments / feedback and appreciative of your time.

I am signing up with Chalmers for next Tuesday.

And maybe I don't know what is considered a friendship!

My wife will call someone a friend if she has just met them and they were not a jerk or hateful person. So they are friends to her. Where they would just be an acquaintance to most everyone else... or not even that... just still a stranger.

What makes someone an OS friend that is a danger?
How much time?
What type of conversation?

With my wife being gregarious and a talkative person everyone who first meets here feels like they just made a new friend just because she is so talkative and lively and not like many people you first meet who may be more reserved at first. She uses her hands... may pat you on your arm while talking. All of this makes her look like you are close friends from get go. And men can misread this.

So in this beginning stage does she have a new OS friend? I don't think so and I don't think there is a danger at first meeting (unless she is immediately attracted to the person)

So when does it become a danger. For me it would be either the amount of time with them, their conversation (playful), or venturing into intimate conversation.

Someone posted levels of conversation (that I can't find at moment) and my wife is almost always in the first 2 levels that were considered safe. She may venture into 3rd level which I believe is where she had ventured with consultants. I need to find the list again.

BUT... had I had a clear picture of the relationships as they built I would have been first alerted based on time (not intimate conversation). Then eventually it crossed from acquaintance to working relationship to friendship. Friendship stage would be immediate threat to me... but how deep of friendship did she ever have may never be known. Going by emails it is hard to say. I never found deep intimate conversations or conversations complaining about marriage or sexual conversation. There was clearly a friendship and a desire to have that friendship. You can see earlier posts on the subject matter. Extreme danger to me.

My wife in general may never speak on an intimate level, but can talk for long periods about random stuff where that random stuff would be acquaintance level conversation to me. Things like where do you work, family, general every day conversation. But if enough time is spent for that acquaintance to build to more then I believe conversation does go further into friendship and early level intimate conversation.

We run into and interact with OS all the time. I just don't get very friendly with them and do NOT make it look like I am available by bantering (flirt without sexual innuendo or just being playful) or spending a lot of time with them.

Where my wife seems like close friends right off the bat and just naturally acts friendly to everyone (but does seem to gravitate to men).

I guess I am trying to make sure I understand what friendships to end:

Right now the two consultants was one clear issue which she seems to have ended now. Again one or two emails in last 6 months that were work related. Can't prove anything on her office phone though.

The relationship with coach which had started making me uncomfortable I have seen her restricting, but I did not request she END any interaction, but limit it to what was required and then move on. My daughter is taking a break from swimming and may decide to never continue so we may be away from swim team forever... but don't want to get back into these situations.

She will call every guy at work a friend... so unless I can find anything via emails / text / chat / other that would indicated anything more than a working relationship then I don't see a need request she never interact with any OS co worker.

But I am on high alert and watching and will make requests as I see issues.

So, you would rather wait until after either an entrenched Emotional or Physical Affair occurs before you request that her behaviors with OS "Friends" should be eliminated to protect your marriage?

Why would you even allow that possibility to occur and cause both of you so much angst and pain?

Wouldn't a more loving act be to repeatedly get her to see the disturbance that Any continual OS contacts can hurt both spouses?

LTL

Melody... I haven't gotten a short post to you yet. I think a short post may be more difficult then stopping a DJ.

Does anyone know if insurance will cover the MB counseling? They told me they do not file insurance, but was wondering if anyone else here has ever filed it and had counseling covered.

Over the phone and internet Coaching is Not Counseling and is not covered by any insurers I inquired with.

LTL

DAMN... I apparently can't explain myself worth crap!

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!!!!!

I DO speak up... I AM all about protecting marriage.

I speak up almost every time I can think of about OS friendships.

The only relationships she has at all that I know of our co-workers and the people she sees at swim team.

The issue at work with consultants appears to be ended based on all evidence. The coach relationship is actively changing.

I can't tell her you can't go to work, because men work there or you can't go shopping because a man works there. BUT if I see anything "starting" to form I make a request.

What am I saying that says I am OK with OS friendships building??????

No, it is not covered under insurance because they do directional coaching.

I can't possibly read this long email. Can you condense your responses to 3 short paragraphs?

And at swim team I know husbands and wives and I have spoke with them both. But speaking to them didn't cause a danger, because it is highly limited time, highly limited conversation and generally limited to pleasantries and basics about swim team. And usually I direct conversation to the men.

So have I done something against MB here? I don't think so. So as long as her relationships with OS remain like this I don't have any issue. It is when it starts building beyond the basics that I start making requests.

I don't think making a request to so you can't speak to another OS person ever is what MB is saying.

BUT TRUST ME... I have seen so many failed marriages by OS friendships that it is #1 on things you can do to love bust me. IB being #2 which technically OS Friendships could be classified as IB.

It is not necessary to use 1000 words to describe every throught. Truly.

How about this:
And maybe I don't know what is considered a friendship!

My wife will call someone a friend if she has just met them and they were not a jerk or hateful person. So they are friends to her. Where they would just be an acquaintance to most everyone else... or not even that... just still a stranger.

What makes someone an OS friend that is a danger?
How much time spent together makes them OS friend.?
What type of conversation?
Are we saying having a simple conversation with OS person (not friend yet) is immediate offense?

I work with at least 20 females. NOT a single one is even a threat because of how I handle myself. But I have to work with them every day... day in and day out. So do I quit my job?

At what point would you say... You don't like what I see between me an OS person?

An OS friendship is one where personal information is shared. But I was not aware your wife had sworn them off. That is great!

She has never said I swear off OS friendships and may never say I swear off an OS friends... because she doesn't agree with the level of danger that is there... and I believe at heart she feels that it infringes on "her" rights and I should "trust" her to not cross a line that she goes by.

BUT she has agreed at this point in time that any OS relationships out side of strictly work relationship must be approved by one another and since we know I am not going to approve an OS friend or one building to it she understands she is not to be building any. So by at least agreeing to this then we are in better place than before.

Two problems though:

1) What do each one of us classify as a friend. What I call a true friendship building is more strict than what she would call a true friend. Yes she calls everyone a friend... but one in which she calls a real friend is usually way past where I feel high risk. So although she agrees to not building OS friendships... the issue is what that is. It should be more than clear to her what I don't like as I make it known via request / complaint so there shouldn't be any confusion.

2) And since she doesn't agree to the same extent of the danger OS friends pose... at any point she could decide she just doesn't agree and stop following agreement. And to be honest since she is NOT enthusiastic about limiting OS relationships to non friend status can she keep up with what she doesn't necessarily believe in herself.

Will she ever get to the point where she doesn't feel "restricted" or "limited" or "untrusted" by abiding by OS guidelines MB has and I agree with? I don't know.

So there isn't this... Oh Hubby... I love you and agree with you and your MB beliefs and swear off OS friendships.

But there is... I don't agree in your specific beliefs... but I am agreeing (reluctantly) to restrict OS relationships.

But I still feel unsafe based on 1 and 2 above and feel I must diligently be watchful.

Last thing... the phrase she has used with me in the past when I "use to try" and get her to understand the dangers of OS friendships:

"I agree with you in principle and when you share your beliefs about OS friendships they make good commonsense to me and biblical sense... I just don't agree in how it is put into practice"

Heck she has seen 5+ marriages destroyed by OS friendships sneaking in... including her Dad and her own past relationship. I really would have thought she would be one of the biggest advocates on protecting from OS friends.

The guiding force here should be each others preferences. For example, a "friendship" is defined as a personal relationship. [the def is in Dr Harley's article] What matters is what makes you happy. So you need to tell her what you are comfortable with and vice versa.


Her "enthusiasism" is not required so that is fine. She doesn't need to be "enthusiastic" about STOPPING doing something that is harmful to you.


You don't have the power to restrict her. You are not her poppa daddy. However, I don't imagine she will ever embrace this program if someone does not SELL IT TO HER.


I would wager she is not in love and of course, she doesn't embrace MB.


That is just great!


What matters are her actions. Feelings follow actions.

Again, can you pick up UA time before you leave in the morning?

How can he plan dates for the morning? Are they off work in the morning?

We both work in mornings and have 3 kids we take to two locations. If they could take children 30 minutes earlier we could do breakfast together and get an hour of time, but that is not possible. But as it is one kids are dropped off we have to be at office shortly after.

We have date night tonight. Part will be Christmas shopping, part movie, part dinner and something else. We have about 6 hours total with 1.75 being movie which i don't count as UA, but is something we enjoy

Sounds great! And you are right about the mornings. It doesn't work anyway unless it is in 2-4 hour blocks, on DATES away from the house.