Since you said much bigger problems I thought you were referring to something specific.

Apparently we have lots of issues.

I have listed the Love Busters I am working on and improving and hopefully eliminating.

But to me the number one thing is my wife thinking my requests to stop something or not do something are unreasonable... and it almost 100% settles around IB or OS boundaries.

And to my wife you will here her chant the TRUST word over and over. She wants to be TRUSTED. And all I can do is tell her what I need to help build that trust.

Today was slated (in my mind) the last appointment with counselor with both of us there.

She wanted to talk about trust and that I just didn't trust her. It was a catch 22 to her. She says she wants to do things that protect me... but she feels that some of the things that bother me are unreasonable (like touching a man on his back) and that I should just trust her not to do anything inappropriate. I told her the following:

"You are correct, I do not trust you 100% and will probably never trust anyone including our pastor or family members 100%. We will all fail each other at some point. But I can share with you what will build a great deal of trust quickly with me. When I share that something you are doing with OS makes me uncomfortable if you were to stop doing it because you know it hurts or causes me discomfort that would build trust and make large deposits"

She immediately went into defense mode and started talking about whether something is reasonable or not or just my insecurity. She then said she wanted to know why it makes me uncomfortable for her to place her hand on the shoulder or the back of another man or anything I am uncomfortable with.

I told her "I don't know. It is just how I feel."

Ultimately my wife is hung up on what is reasonable or not reasonable.

How do you deal with that? There is nothing I can say or do that would not just tick her off at this point.

The conversation continued, but you need this bit of info:
I found an email from the OS friend / consultant yesterday... the same guy she had built a close friendship with last year. It was only an email requesting help on a project (for his company) and asked how the kids were doing. Other than that nothing more. The email was marked as read before I looked at it. No replies were made as best I could tell. So it looked like it was at least read or marked read.

So my wife continued...
She started talking about trust again and how when I make a request it feels like I don't trust her and she feels I should.

I made the MISTAKE of sharing the following: "Here is one reason that can make it hard to trust... I noticed the OS friend / consultant has reached out to you and per our agreement if he ever reached out you would share the interaction with me and you haven't.".

She immediately got ticked off and in an irritated tone said she doesn't know about any interaction with that man. She said she hasn't heard from him or interacted with him since the last time I knew about it (when she didn't tell me about it then either). So she kept repeating what interaction am I talking about. She pulled out her phone and searched her email and found the email.

She was pissed... and I mean pissed off and said she didn't know anything about that email and how did I know about it. I said it really doesn't matter how I know. She is now speaking with raised voice... yes it does matter how you know. She is now showing tears with her anger, jaw locked tight and looks like ready to do battle or walk out. She then said she didn't know anything about the email and had not seen it yet and it just shows how you don't trust me and you just assume I am hiding something on purpose. You are calling me a liar.

I calmly said that all I can go by is it is marked as a read email in your email account. She replied that she marks almost all the emails that come in as read as she gets so many from work (and to confirm she does get a lot of repetitive emails from work). She said you should know I am not lying by how ticked off I am and in tears over you calling me a liar.

I wasn't going to argue or debate whether she saw it or not. I don't see a reply (don't have a mechanism to see if she called on office phone) and don't see any calls from her work cell or personal cell phone or have any other evidence so I don't have anything more than the email marked as read to go by. So yes... it is possible she marked it read when she bulk marked a bunch of emails as read.

So I told her that I am sorry she feels I was calling her a liar... I was pointing out something that looked like she had read it and had not been shared and that would be something that would make trust difficult. I then apologized for coming across as calling her a liar... but please understand how it looks.

She is so pissed she says she wants me to leave and let her have a few minutes with counselor.

I do honor her request, but simply leave with the following:
Again... I am sorry you took it as I was calling you a liar. I was sharing what I saw and how it was an email marked as read. It was not my intention to be accusatory and since you felt that way I am sorry as that was not my intention.

I wanted to know what was making her so pissed... that I knew about the email without her knowledge or if she genuinely was hurt that I didn't believe her.... as I do believe she wants me to trust her. I can see that... but she doesn't seem to understand how that is earned with what has happened. Anyway... I didn't ask or say anything else and left. Do I believe she didn't really see it. Don't know... it is possible based on what she said, but I will continue to keep a lookout.

During the session the whole concept of trust and reasonable kept coming from her. Sadly the counselor said there is a certain aspect of reasonable that needs to be considered, but nothing you as husband has requested is unreasonable. He didn't give a clear example of what he was meaning by something being unreasonable, but I am guessing he means me having her do something morally wrong or having her DO something she doesn't want to DO or not speaking to another OS person ever no matter what. The problem is... without him explaining what he meant it seemed like he was confirming there should be examination of reasonableness which may give my wife validity in saying I am unreasonable to her. Even though he said I was NOT being unreasonable and I am not asking for her to sin or do anything morally wrong... just asking she not do something that makes me uncomfortable.

Anyway... I have decided to go with Steve Harley instead of Chalmers. One because of discount and two because he may have better shot at pulling my wife in at some point.

I don't have time to read that long post, but am glad to hear you made a decision about coaching!

That's ok, don't know how shorten what happened. I think we are done.

Wife said she was changing work cell phone password and not going to let me know it again when she found i knew about OS consultant emailing her (not a personal email). She claims hippa violation.

I cannot live in marriage where there is no open, honest and transparency.

She came back with ask me any time and i will let you look.

Apparently work trumps marriage.

yep, sounds you do need to speak to Steve Harley!

Can you slip some spyware on her phone?

Don't be disheartened MSM. At this stage, this reaction, though extreme and distressing, is to be expected. If she was given blank trust, she would be able to do as she pleases without any thought for you.

Considering you in day to day decisions is actually quite a difficult skill while she is out of love. Plus there's no pay off for her in doing this difficult thing.

When in love, she will feel as though your heart is hers and it will come as naturally as breathing to her.

I would take SH's coaching on building deposits. I'd also be protective of your wife surreptitously, as you already have been doing.

Another thing you can do is start accepting her refusals. When she says 'no' to something, like your asking her to not touch a man in a certain way - say OK. Don't debate it. You've told her it bothers you, if she says no, just say 'OK. I just wanted you to know so you could decide if it was something you could change.' If she says no it's unreasonable etc, say OK.

It's only a request if she is allowed to say no. Once she gets the message that it is truly a choice she is making (do I continue to touch men? Why is that so important to me?) Not something she 'has' to do (I will continue to do whatever I think is best or I lose control of my life).

She isn't desperate to touch men in that way. But being allowed to make her own choices is very important to her.

That's why she throws a tantrum at every request.

Accepting a no, would place the onus back on her.

Thank you for the reply. At this point if she said she was going to walk out I am probably to the point where I would say go ahead. Tired of the threats to force me into being ok with her lack of boundaries or being ok with her doing whatever she wants no matter what. I am tired of the active decision she makes to show no care. What was the term here... gaslighting.

Personally I think she is going to just walk over this.

Today she forwarded me her responses to OS consultant. This is first email from him in multiple months. He is emailing her as a favor to him. He has a customer that wants to understand more about product and since my wife knows this product well he is asking her to work with him to create a video or some documentation for his potential customer.

Yes... some companies allow their employees to do these "favors" as a professional courtesy. And to be honest if this was a business relationship that was always appropriate and not something that turned into a very close OS friendship (at the minimum) then I don't think I would have an issue with my wife providing a professional courtesy and lend a little help to a company they work with.

BUT... this is the man that a close friendship was built with (at minimum) that was born out of lies. The agreement that was made was that she would not longer have "personal" conversations with him and the ONLY interaction would be required "work" related interaction if they needed him on a project to help provide consulting on.

This request of his is NOT required. This is a favor to him and she thinks it is unreasonable for her to not provide the help.

I will never know how much of a friendship or how close they ever became. By the time I found out about MB and put some things into place to snoop nothing would point to more than a close friendship building and my wife obviously enjoying time with him more than her husband.

Indiegirl... I am unfortunately very disheartened at the moment.

I was in the works of determining the software best for this, but now she has changed password and will not give it to me.

What kind of phone does she have? If it is an iPhone you don't need the password to the phone but to her iTunes account.

My wife did forward her exchange with him today. Basically after she "found out" he had emailed her she replied to him as soon as she got back to her office after leaving counseling.

His email request was saying:
<<
How are things down in ????, I hope you and the family had a great thanksgiving holiday. I'm sure they are eager for Christmas to get here. I've got a customer what would love to see/learn more about how live customers manage the ??? and ??? but doing a site visit is not necessary. Wondering how difficult it would be for you to create Video of how you do it. Or something else without including confidential data
>>

Again... in general without past relationship this would not bother me. Only in the context of the relationship that had been built.

Her reply:
<<
Here in ???? things are interesting. Company is fixing to work on ????. I totally think you should have another certification for that Just kidding.

Holidays are crazy.

Give me a shout and let's talk about your ideas. Not sure about video but we can talk about it.
>>

At this point not sure any reply would make me happy due to the nature of past relationship. Of course now phone calls will take place at her office that I will not be privy to the content or how "personal" it gets... or how much "catching up they do"

They have several more email exchanges where he said he will call next week and my wife responding saying she will work on some pictures and she requested the other companies contact info so she can talk with them... and she will make him a power point.

Again... all of this probably would not be an issue at all if it was a professional relationship that had boundaries all along and had not been allowed to grow to a closer friendship.

I want to clarify our agreement and request that since this is not work related (for her company) that she simply not do the favors for him and kindly say that sorry she wouldn't be able to help as she is slammed at work (which she is). But I know that this is unreasonable to her... she just sees it as... I am not doing anything wrong... and really can't seem to see the bigger picture on this.

I can get this if she ever logs into it on one of our computers at home... but she has only done it at work where I don't have access. But I will monitor and see if it comes up somewhere.

It's worth keeping in mind that none of us see the bigger picture. We are all blind to our spouse's thoughts and feelings and the reasons that inspire them. Explaining jealous instinct to a non jealous person is like explaining Swahili to a goat.

She isn't a professional psychiatrist so she doesn't understand that your feelings can't be changed. She has also been seeing a professional who is counselling her to try and change your feelings!

She's not only in the same dark room as all the rest of us re telepathy and empathy - she's actively been given a red herring. So far as she's concerned, she's fighting for a healthier 'trusting' relationship.

Looking at the bigger picture from her angle - her behaviour makes sense.

But the fact you've had it with being railroaded - the fact you have become disheartened is actually the most hopeful sign on your thread so far. Becoming disheartened with it all and showing you will quit counselling and seek more productive help for yourself will chip away at the 'truths' she has convinced herself of.

Firstly, the counsellor won't be able to attack you because you are not sitting there being the easiest target in the room. True, he can still give damaging messages, but is now less likely to push the 'just quit having complaints' angle.

Secondly, people rarely believe what we tell them. They only believe what we show them. If you say you love, trust and respect her and that is WHY you feel jealousy, she won't believe you from her dark-room vantage point. She won't believe you can't change that and still love her.

However if all your actions, like quitting counselling and being respectfully persistent in your right to have a different viewpoint, she may.

Plus working with Steve and not getting battered by the counsellor regularly will do wonders for your mood and moral and therefore your persuasiveness.

Chin up! You're making a beeline for a good path.

I almost missed this. Thank you for the insight on this.

indiegirl,

Thanks for the encouragement.

Ok... other than starting with Steve... I would love more encouragement and pointers on where to go from here. I am guessing...

- Continue Plan A.
- No Love Busting
- Keep making requests when needed
- Keep trying to have date nights and getting whatever UA time she will allow.
- What you just shared Indie about accepting refusals (which I think I have been pretty good at), but really like how you have described it.

How about on this specific subject where she is refusing to give access to work email? Do I not say anything else? For how long? Is it something I make a daily request and then drop it if she says no?

I will hopefully know my appointment times with Steve when they open back up tomorrow.

And thank goodness I had started taking the 5-htp for depression... it has made a huge difference. I would have been an absolute wreck yesterday and been up and done up and done. Now instead of this big monster waves it is much more mild and easier to cope emotionally.

I think you have been pretty good at all those things.

I think your main priority is to keep your morale up. You are in a pretty rocky place but you'll get out. Self care, counselling with Steve, a plan that ensures your happiness.

We listen to those who are happy, calm and confident. The more you display those traits the harder it becomes to write off your complaints as insecurity.

How about on this specific subject where she is refusing to give access to work email? Do I not say anything else? For how long? Is it something I make a daily request and then drop it if she says no?

I would drop it entirely but watch her like a hawk.

She isn't going to be voluntarily transparent before she is in love and her boundaries are awful.

If you can pull it off, try to put over a mild disappointment in her choice but act as though it is her choice.

You're a parent so you probably have a good disappointment face. Do it non verbally then drop it!

I am fighting being in third state of withdrawal. I just want to protect myself from further emotional pain and it is hard not let myself slip here... and I don't want to be here! I feel like I could just throw up from how sick in the stomach it is making me.

I will know my appointment dates with Steve or Chalmers Monday. I still have to make final decision on which one. Has anyone here worked with both?