What did Dr. Harley say?

Also, you never addressed what your action plan for the week is. So what is it?

Independent behavior is anything you do with no regard for your spouse that effects your spouse in any way.

Mark,

You probably don't mean it that way, but you come across as someone who has difficulties changing his habits aka stubborn. Because many of your questions are about if something was "right" or "wrong".

The better approach to you wife's complaints is not: I'm not sure if you understood Dr Harley correctly, but: "how would you like me to do it better next time" and then do it.

You are getting nowhere by proving that you were right/ you didn' mean it in a bad way/ giving excuses for why you did the thing you did.
Have you worked on taking your wife for a date to a place she would like if she would like to go?

Did you sign up for classmates.com and not tell your wife? And try and hide it by setting up a rule to have all sent emails deleted?

OK, I understand that. I seem to struggle with a reply to my wife or even people on the forum without coming across as defensive, or arrogant, or even offensive. Please advise me on what I'm doing wrong in that regard.

OK ,I won't focus on who's wrong or right. I already apologize more than she cares to ear. Instead I will ask "OK, what can I do better next time?" and then do it.

No, I haven't focused on what or where I can have a date with her, assuming she'd agree. From a schedule perpsecitve, whe was not available until yesterday as she had a class she was taking that comsuned her every spare minute until thie past Thursday. I'll let you know what I might come with in this regard.

If whe won't agree to a date, what do I do?
Thanks, Remark

Remark, I have been following your thread. (And rooting for you and your marriage!)


You say this... a couple times in this thread it seems you have minimized and rationalized the EA.

I understand most people who are not familiar with MB principles would not use the word "affair" to describe what you did, but even if you did not think it was "wrong" at the time, you knew it would upset your wife or you would not have tried to hide your activity.

You say you have rehashed this several times with your wife.

I am a woman I have experienced great challenge at times "letting things go" even after an apology and discussion. That was times when my husband's apology felt like appeasement. Like his goal was not to connect with me and help me feel better, but rather to SHUT. ME. UP. so he could move on with his life. When he did that, I was like a dog with a bone.

On the other hand, when he acknowledges what he did and why my unhappiness is legitimate, I find I couldn't stay upset even if I wanted to. I feel cared for and understood and I love him more for it.

For example - the other day I was in a situation I found really irritating due to IB on DH's part. He called me and the first thing he said was "I'm sorry." I asked "Do you know what you're sorry for?" And he said "I _____." and he nailed it. We both laughed and that was the end of it. All the energy was gone from my irritation. If he had explained why he did what he did and why I shouldn't be upset I would have felt patronized and like he did not understand my feelings at all.

Back to you - It sounds like you're on the right track in regards to the EA now. In previous posts you said "I didn't consider it wrong, my family didn't consider it wrong." (Something like that, I'm paraphrasing.)

Being told that would infuriate me if I was your wife and I would be hard pressed not to harp and harp and harp on you about it because I would feel like even though may know that I am upset, you don't think I should be (I feel my own chest tightening just imagining this) and 2) you were more worried about defending your behavior that considering my point of view, and yet 3) we both know you knew d*mn well at the time that your actions would upset me or you would not have tried to hide what you did.

On the other hand, if you told me "I'm so sorry. I was immature and self indulgent. I knew it would upset you if you knew, but I did it anyhow because it stroked my ego and I figured it was harmless - that what you didn't know wouldn't hurt you. But now I understand so much more how even if you hadn't found out I was hurting our marriage ...etc... - whatever the truth is about why you did what you did, how you understand why it hurt her and your marriage - that may go a lot further in helping your wife move on.

Every time you explain why you did something you did in a way that shifts blame it gives the impression that you're only sorry you got caught and have to deal with the headache of explaining and appeasing now.... The actual transgression may be very minor, but, at least for me personally, feeling like my spouse does not take my concerns seriously (because he's busy explaining why what he did was a reasonable thing to do) is not minor at all.

Hope this helps with some female perspective.

Years ago, I think I did do the free version when it came to me in a spam or advertisement email. But, it requires a bona fide paid subscription to do anything now I learned as I investigated to respond to this e-mail. I unsubscribed as of that research so as to not get e-mails from Classmates.com.
I am unsubscribing from anything that might be compromising like that.
I do have a Facebook account which I only use to keep track of my five children. I use it to hold my kids accountable and see what they're posting once in a while.
Thanks,
Remark

Thanks, Anywife. That all sounds like great feedback from person with a similar perspective as my better half.

I seem to come across to her in an arrogant, offensive way when I don't mean to at times.

In future conversations, I will acknowledge my wrong doing, with less defensiveness and more humility.

A difference,perhaps, bet ween you and my wife, is that she has heard so many apologies at this point, that apologies mean nothing to her. They come across as a "sales pitch".

Thanks, remark

Not apologizing anymore is fine. But you should still try to entice her to spend time with you on a fun date if you are to have any hope of saving the marriage. Also if she likes thoughtful gifts like flowers or coffee, or thoughtful actions such as taking out trash,etc.

10-4 Apples. I take every opportunity to do so that I perceive.

Thanks, Remark

Forumers,

Many of my posts as well as verbal responses to my wife are perceived as defensive. What makes them defensive?

If I keep 'I do not', and similar rebutal, negating comments out of my languaage, what is still making them defensive?

Thanks,
Remark

This post is defensive!

Why?

Because you give reasons that seek to invalidate other people's perspectives rather than accept those perspectives for what they are. Instead of saying things to explain yourself, concentrate on receiving clarification from others. You would have been fine if you had stopped with your first paragraph. In your second paragraph, you imply that you think you are doing enough, and that comes across as defensive.

Can you see that?

mrE,
No, I don't see that.
But, thanks. So, I should keep the extraneous information paragraph explanation out of it?
Are there other examples of defensive language or patterns that I use, or perhaps others use, that I might glean defensiveness in and therefore avoid?

Thanks,
Remark

Markos,
A while back, I consolidated two lists of all my passwords onto one and gave it to her. (I had one my work computer for work-related logons and one on my personal, home PC.) I consolidated it onto one as some of the passwords were outdated, updated because I forgot it, or whatever. Some of my work passwords expire every 90 days and need to be reset as well. Two lists on the two computers meant that one was always out of date from the other. So, it was a good exercise to consolitate them even for my own purposes.

Anyway, my wife is welcome to log into my email and snoop and she did which is the point and design, of course.

Unfortunately, in my email there was an email from classmates.com that I didn't have on my password list. She attempted to go to classmates.com where it required a password. Since it was not on my list, it raised her ire, as I can understand. I didn't join classmates.com, but I believe I did receive an ad/spam email telling me some classmastes had inquired about me. So, I went to the classmates.com website at somne point. But, as I recall, a screenn or two in, it wanted me to register and pay $X.XX/month for the sevice. Well, I wasn't/am not interested in paying for that service. But, they had enough info on me to recall my e-mail address when she went back. And, if I had a password assigned, I don't know what it is/was.

I get other spam e-mails that alarm her, e-mails which I don't spend time even reading. So, I am taking the time to pull them up and unsubscribe from them.

Also, I had a typo on one of them, so as she tried to log on, it failed, of course.

I hope these are understandable mistakes, as they were not malicious or meant to deceive in any way.

My whole intent was and is to follow the policy of extraordinary measures.

Thanks, Remark

In another thread (Help! I want to do the right thing!) an incident regarding fixing a toilet came up. I think you left a conversation to fix the toilet and your wife was unhappy about that. At some point in the thread you said this (emphasis added by me):


That sounded very defensive to me. Why did you need to let us know the toilet was dripping on the floor? And then you say "this is more important of course."

Tone and attitude don't always come across in writing, so I may be way off, but this is what when through my head when I read those two sentences:

Remark said:
"The leaking toilet is on hold, steadily dripping onto some towels."

Anywife heard:
I feel defensive, like the people on here think everything that is wrong in our marriage is my fault. I need to let you all know that, in this situation at least, my wife is the one who is not being reasonable. Once you know the toilet was literally dripping on the floor, surely you'll understand I did the only reasonable thing and my wife was completely unreasonable to expect me to talk with her while it dripped. I'm trying really hard but what she wants is unrealistic.

Remark Said: "This is more important, of course."

Anywife heard:
"My marriage is more important. I do believe that. But, in this instance surely you can see that the toilet situation was more urgent. Please give me credit for being such a good guy that I am willing to let our floor boards rot in order to try to save my marriage."

Also, are you the one who had a plummer come out to check your work when you had POJA'd that a plummer would do the work? whoever that was, that struck me as defensive and very "I told you so." (H feels defensive that the W wants a plumber to do the work over him, does it on the sly, then uses the technicality of having a plumber out to check his work for free as a way to say he stuck with the agreement, and as an opportunity to say to W - "See? You were wrong to think I could not fix this and to want to hire someone else. And you can't get mad at me because I did call a plumber and I didn't waste any money since I had a coupon."

-------------------
Please note: I am not judging you or saying that you have no reasons to feel defensive or that either you or your wife are right/wrong in any situation. Just giving you examples of things that struck me as defensive. I also tend to be defensive and think "...if they only understood how unreasonable my H can be...!" but I realize now, that's not the point. The point is to stop doing things that upset your spouse, not convince a bunch of people on the Internet that you have good reason for doing the things they find upsetting.