You........will pass?

The worksheets are great that way because there doesn't need to be any response. Just give them to him. You can send them via email or print them out and leave them somewhere for him to find. There doesn't need to be any response. If he has a response, just refuse to discuss it, and tell him to post here or email Dr. Harley instead. By then you will have already posted here the same information that you gave him in the worksheet.


Yes, quit debating with him. Don't try to prove you have the right to feel what you feel; just feel it whether he likes it or not.


Worksheets! Once a week, and copy the forum.


He posted his claim that he is transparent today at 3:03 P.M. I've been out and about all day and only just now able to respond. Do you want to let us know how he is failing you in this regard? That would be helpful information.

Also, please stop being sarcastic when you communicate; just pass the information.

Yes, I do get that point. An apple is not an orange. Would it help if I stop in the office at church tomorrow and ask if they still have records back that far and have them check if in fact it was presented by the Harleys? I've already agreed to take it off my list of qualifiers because I can't prove one way or the other.

What do you mean "NOW?" I've always followed his program. I was the one that wrote to Dr. Harley in April, and several other times. I agreed to the call-in. Never was Dr. Harley under the impression I was against his program. I believe he sees the damage that my H's LB's are doing and recognizes the reason for my withdrawal and doesn't see any value in "digging the snail out of its shell with a fork." I've always been willing to re-engage once my H ever got on board. But, again, even Dr. Harley said my H isn't following the program. What, then, would be the value of the program if only one of us is still doing it?

Of course I know that people don't have to help me. And again, I'm here because my H requested it. I'm much more interested in what I can do to help people help my H, but there seems to be a lot of pointing at me not doing something. What is it you expect me to be doing? I'm waiting while Dr. Harley works with my H, though, admittedly, the day-to-day frustration regularly threatens my resolve. If I were having an EA right now, I can't even imagine sticking it out. The lure would simply be too great.

And perhaps I'm just dimwitted, but "stop fighting and brawling" is not nearly as clear-cut to me as you think it should be.

Yes, meaning I'd don't find any personal value in just venting, though I realize a lot of people do. I don't, and only post with in the hopes of getting feedback.

And I would have to think that posting just to vent would certainly qualify as wasting people's time.

That is great. Please respect that we are volunteers and lose the snotty tone...or we will pass. We have our own lives too and are not obliged to answer your every question. We are not even obliged to post to you.

Could you please remind me of what worksheets you're referring to? Is it in the 5 Steps booklet?

So I say, "It bothers me when you do that," and he responds in his typical manner, should I just walk away? Should I tell him to take it to the board? At that point, it's still an outstanding issue (ie. the toilet). Walking away seems like non-verbal way of saying "whatever you want."

Got it.

It's not your response time, Marcos, and I'm glad you were out and about, hopefully having fun. My comment was in regard to the odd nature of posting about my H's thread but not being able to post ON it. It's just unusual and I'm not sure how I'm supposed to manage this, as in post my contradictions to his posts as I see them or just wait until someone specifically visits my thread and asks me. I'll give details in the next post.

To you?? Sincere apologies! Not intended to come across that way at all. I can understand that it could be inadvertently because of my frustration with my personal situation, so I apologize. I will be very sensitive to that in the future. Please call me on it immediately if you notice me doing it again.

Great! It took a while, but we are making progress. I needed you to GET that point so I could move onto my next point. Which is that many people have come here over the years [including me] who have "worked the program" through a church or on their own without success. Once they get direct guidance from Dr Harley [in whatever form] things start changing. You can see that I signed up in 2001 but still didn't really know the program until 2007, when we went through Dr Harley's course. So you should be positive about the program.



That is great news to hear! Hopefully, you will demonstrate engagement instead of saying over and over you have tried everything and it hasn't worked. We will see.


What we expect you to be doing is using the program, rather than brawling on the forum. I don't think that is helpful, do you? And thank you for acknowledging that people here don't have to help you. We are not paid employees but volunteers.

Melody, I wish I could buy you a cup of coffee and spend a few minutes with you in person. I've obviously offended you and I'm sorry. Frankly, I hate the impersonal nature of text. It allows too many misunderstandings, especially when I am *NOT* an effective writer. Too much time writing logic code, probably.

They are described in Love Busters, and there's a template worksheet in the workbook. But really, all it has to be is a list.

I appreciate the apology but I am saying this - not because I am offended - but because I am concerned FOR YOU. You need all the help you can get and I see you repelling some of the best volunteers on the forum. It is not just me that has tried to point this out to you. I hope you are more aware of this now.

I hear you and how well it worked for you. Then I wonder why Dr. Harley would not advise my H to sign up, especially when he recognizes that my H isn't following it in spite of already reading all of his books.

Just to clarify, the PROGRAM works. It hasn't worked (in its current application) in our M.

Okay, then considering all that, perhaps I'll just wait for people ask me what they want to know. I don't think I can contest my H's posts without it looking like I'm brawling. Good?

Definitely, and thank you. It does make me even more inclined to take a "hand's off" approach. You all have a better handle on this than I do, obviously, so I'm thinking I'll just step back from the process. I certainly don't want to inhibit it in any way. I'll fill out the forms. Otherwise, you all please let me know what you need from me.

Or he may think you won't get involved. Or he may rather supervise you directly. I don't know. But I would ask and let him know you are willing if you are.

On Wednesday, per your instructions, Remark sent me a list of his passwords, which he does periodically. On Friday, after all the posts about snooping, I thought perhaps I should snoop, too. When I tried to login to his email using the password on the list he just sent me, it didn't work. After addressing it with him, he sent me a new list. Apparently he keeps a document at home and a document at work. The one at work was the accurate version, not the one at home. Of course, I can't get to his files at work, so I would never have access to the "accurate" copy.

Also, when I went into his personal email account, I realized he was still doing most of his communication through his work email, which I also don't have access to. He started doing that shortly after the latest discovery of his inappropriate email exchanges in his personal account. I told him I found it suspicious, and even pointed out that using his work email for personal business was not a good idea, especially in light of his previous employment issues. He still regularly hands out his work email address for contact information.

His statement that I'm welcome to snoop is accurate, I simply don't have access to do so.

Can he sign into his work email from your home computer? Almost all companies have a way to do this. OR, he could set up his work email account on an iPad and you would have access to everything.

Just dropping in to give an update as I was instructed to do last week.

Honestly, it was a busy week with very little personal interaction. Unfortunately, we still had one incident on Monday when I discovered that Remark had fixed the toilet after all, in spite of my sharing with him that I preferred that he call a plumber to fix it. Technically, on Friday he did call and schedule a plumber for Monday to fix it, but then did it himself on Sunday anyway but left the appointment to have the plumber "check" his work.

There was much discussion on the topic of the toilet previously between he and myself, as well as discussion by him with the forum, about the POJA and how it works, so I have no doubt he understood my position. The really difficult part for me to wrap my mind around is that he actually fixed the toilet on Sunday 12/7 between his 8:10 and his 2:57 p.m. posts, in which he was talking about his newfound understanding of the POJA. He knew I didn't want him to do it, so he did it while I was gone from the house. He didn't tell me beforehand that he was going to do it and he didn't tell me afterwards that he had. I just discovered it on my own on Monday morning. And when I pointed out that I had an issue with it, he went into his normal response of defensiveness and rationalization.

Per your instructions, I didn't fight with him. I just stated my dissatisfaction with his behavior and left for work.

It really put a damper on my week, though. I suspect it would have been very awkward for me being around him if I hadn't been so busy. Thankfully now that my schedule has freed up, he's out of town for the weekend visiting his family again. It was just such a shock in light of his posts here. (BTW, we have 3 other working toilets and can easily afford a plumber.) So I'm quite at a loss.

Also, later in the morning after the plumber came, Remark sent me an email pointing out that the plumber approved his work, and that it didn't even cost anything because he had a coupon for a free consult. Am I wrong for feeling like this is a "dig?" Like, "I told you so?"

Thoughts? (With Remark being out of town, it's unlikely he'll be online until possibly Sunday or Monday.)

Also, MelodyLane, I just wanted to follow up with you and let you know that I have confirmed that the HNHN seminar we attended in 1995 was, in fact, hosted by Dr. Harley himself. Just in case that makes a difference in how you approach our situation.

Radio Clip of Remark and JustDaytoDay's Call
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4
Segment #5

I'll drop back in tomorrow to post my weekly worksheet/list.

In the meantime, I'm looking for a suggestion on how I should handle some daily interactions with Remark. I'm looking for something more functional, something between complete avoidance and hand-holding him thru this process. For the most part, we have very little interaction, but when we do, it just doesn't go well and it's evident I can't be doing any accountability with him. At the same time, there are things that are glaringly obvious to me that he misses.

For example, I had a discussion with him early this week where he complained that I wasn't putting as much effort into this as he was, and admitted his resentment because I wasn't. I pointed out to him a post on his thread from 12/3 that spelled it out to him, which was also a reminder of what Dr. Harley had already told him. He had apparently "lost track" of his instructions, again.

He also rejected my complaint that his raising his voice to me was an angry outburst, so he reread the chapter in LB, asked Dr. Harley, and posted on the forum. Only when he finally got an answer confirming my statement did he buy in. I pointed out that he had once again sought/valued the opinion of an anonymous stranger over me, even though he had been told repeatedly that *I* am the person who defines his LB's.

I also suggested that instead of repeatedly posting, effectively, "I'm here and ready for you to tell me what to do," that perhaps he should put some effort into it himself, and ask questions or present issues, which he did. But right now, I've noticed that there are several posts that he has probably overlooked and won't respond to. Do I tell him? It's not like he can't read or couldn't find them if he looked.

And what do I do with things that he presents less than accurately? Ignore them and let him run with it? Or respond to it with my perspective so that the readers can provide more accurate/appropriate feedback?

I'm feeling like if I'm not involving myself, this process will veer widely off-course and potentially crash and burn, but whenever I get involved, we have conflict and I just want to throw in the towel anyway. I'd be thrilled if I could just skip off to Europe for 6 months and come back to a fully-enlightened MB husband, but I can't see than happening.

So in the meantime, how do I figure out the appropriate format of (minimal) involvement while avoiding the conflicts??

Just posting my list...

- Angry outburst when he go angry and raised his voice at me 2 minutes into a conversation.
- Disrespectful judgment when he assigned motive to my actions.
- Rejected my complaints and discredited them
- Eye contact goes out the window with any topic of discussion that he doesn't like
- Discovered his membership to Classmates.com, not on his password list
- Discovered that he has his outgoing email set to "don't save copy to sent folder" so besides the relative inaccessibility of his work email, I can't see what he's sending out in his personal email

Is this helping? I'm not getting much feedback. Am I wasting people's time?