The Harleys are the experts but I don't think you'd feel pain in withdrawal. I'd say you're in conflict. They'll keep you steady while you work on this, whichever one you choose.

Now that you point that out you are likely correct... but I feel like I am on the line. I am starting to feel more like I just don't care what she does, but don't want to get there.

MSM,

You wrote, some of the things that bother me are unreasonable (like touching a man on his back)

My W will do that to some men, yet she says she maintains boundaries. In one incident in particular she touched one of the deacons at church on the back, while complementing him on his sharp suit. It almost seems like my W is on autopilot when these flirting incidents occur. My W would also claim that she has no attraction to these men.

I maintain a distance especially with women I am attracted to, if I got to the point I was touching them I would be very deep with those women or not care about my marriage. I don't know if that line of thinking applies to my W.

God Bless
Gamma

God Bless
Gamma

I believe my wife does do some things on autopilot which does concern me. It means that if I have a request... like stop calling men darling or sweetheart it means she can take the stance that it is just who she is and something she can't change.

Now if she says she is actively working on it and making progress, but at times let's it slip that is different to me as wife is making active changes and working on breaking a habit and building new ones (like calling men by their name and not pet names). I understand this can take a little time.

I have appointment with Steve Harley tomorrow!

Good appointment with Steve. Of course most everything we spoke about was him speaking to the choir as I agreed with it all. I wish I could have him for 8 hours straight!

Now to see if wife would be willing to communicate with him.

Both yours and Gamma's descriptions could refer to me. I think lots of women transfer the features of feminine friendship (much more physical affection and pet naming than male friendships) somewhat thoughtlessly. Honestly I wish my ex had been jealous. It was a big warning sign regarding his own boundaries that he was not. If he had objected I could have erased my habits at a much younger age - it is actually quite difficult once they've become ingrained mannerisms.

I didn't see the issue until it stated to get me into trouble with men 'misreading' me. This wouldn't have happened if my resident man-expert had warned me how men might be reading me.

Its the kind of warning, you don't appreciate at first. But once you see the problems it creates, you would reconsider the sense of it.

Thanks for your continued feedback.

I have over the years let my wife know how men may take it and even want to pursue based on various behaviors like this.

She would always respond with "I can't control them, but I can stop the advance".

And I usually told her int he past that I agree... she absolutely cannot control them, but she can paint a pretty good picture through boundaries that I am not game for open season. And if you do have the few idiots who don't get it then you can put them in their place. But why invite it.

I don't try to educate or make my case at this point so I don't fall into DJ or anything else.

Since first session with Steve Harley today hopefully things will get on track.

I told wife that I made my first appointment with Steve for myself today. She responded with:

"How did it go? Did I misunderstand something? I thought we were going to sit down and take a look at how to pay for it before the first appt was scheduled?"

When I brought up Harley Sunday night while in presence of Pastor she said that she was willing to go, but we would have to figure out how to pay for it. I had told her that I needed to at least go for myself and was she saying I couldn't, because she knows we don't have the "free cash". She said no.

So I scheduled one for me just to see how it would go and see what Steve would recommend.

Steve does want her to have a session with him and we do need to talk about how to pay for it (other then credit card), but I hope she doesn't use this and so she will not do it.

Normally I would definitely POJA something dealing with spending money, but in this case our marriage is on the line.

So hopefully this doesn't come an issue.

It's also your health at risk here. You are slipping really far into withdrawal and you want to tackle that before it gets to depression.

Not to mention you are both headed for separate financial decisions on this path any way - because you are headed towards separation.

This is why in dire circumstances, PoJA can be breached, as in the exposure of an affair for example.

Besides which, she doesn't sound averse to it, she just wants it properly budgeted which I'm sure youre glad to do.

While I believe I am already there... I am taking 5-htp (helps with serotonin levels and it has helped even out the feelings compared to how it was.

Yes... I always want to be sure we budget and since financial matters are very important to her I want to do it. The issue we have is I don't know if we can free up that much in budget to pay cash for 2 to X sessions a month with Steve. It is very expensive when you don't have the help of insurance. Will be talking to work for some help.

Also... I can certainly choose to not go to old counselor, but not sure my wife will make that decision... but one day at a time. Last night I told her what Steve said to ask of her:

"Steve asked if he could meet with you to help us get on the same page about becoming more connected... but at a minimum he would appreciate your perspective on what is going on so he can be more effective in helping me."

My wife responded with "Sure" is a specific vocal tone. Now that is code for I'll do it, but I don't like it. I didn't say that to her, but just sharing here what it means. No I can't read her mind, but in the past it is what it has always meant when she says it the way she did.

Steve is also sending us He Wins / She Wins and shared with her that he wanted me to read it and said to ask wife to read it.

I guess the positive here is she was willing and Steve will have opportunity to talk with her.

I also see where a lot of folks say to email Dr Harley. Sometimes it seems in reference to getting on Radio show, but other times it seems like some folks have direct lines of communication where Dr. Harley will respond back with what to do or what not.

Is the latter where folks are enrolled in online program and can email him directly?

Just curious as it seemed some folks in form have quick access to direct replies.

Thanks

The way referred to on the forum is to email mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. Often as part of participating in the radio program, Dr. Harley will answer follow up emails. If you enroll in the online program, you get access to private forums where Dr. Harley personally replies to posts.

Thank you.

Does your W know about MB?

She knows about Dr Harley through His Needs / Her Needs that local counselor had us read. And she only knows about the IB chapter in Love Busters as that is all he had her read.

She knows about some core concepts and the website through me early on as I tried to unfortunately "educate" which I no longer do. So I think it pushed her away a bit.

But hopefully Steve Harley will be effective in communicating with her. She has agreed to speak with him at least once. We will see.

Wife had first meeting with Steve Harley yesterday. She said he was nice. She said she was willing to continue meeting... but we may be limited to the number of sessions due to the cost. Or we at least may not be able to do more than 10 sessions (1 per week) for 10 weeks and then maybe drop back to once a month and then hopefully in online seminar. Regardless cost could be an issue.

Hopefully she will see the benefit and transition away from other counselor. Opposing views will not do anything for marriage... or even if it isn't direct opposition, but minimizing or leaving parts out.

I will be talking with Steve again today now that he had a chance to meet with wife. I hope he will have a plan for me and more insight on what I can do / continue doing / or stop doing.

My struggle right now is every time I am around my wife I don't have any positive feelings... It is something I do not look forward to at the moment due to the negative feelings from all the past resistance and hurtful actions of late.

There is a point where you just get so tired. But I have to push through. There is more hope here in the fact she is willing to continue meeting with Steve!

It is funny (in a sad way)... when it comes to spending money my wife will spend $500+ dollars in a heart beat for plants to put up around house to help sell house or $500 to fix up a room... without really having agreement with me (making it IB), but when it comes to spending some money to save our marriage she then starts saying:

"Well we need to find a way to pay for this. Could we sell off some of your stuff"

The statement by itself is fine... of course we need to budget and find a way to pay for it. And of course I am willing to sell of items of value... BUT what does feel hurtful to me is she doesn't bat an eye on spending on those plants or on the room in order to help sell the house... or to pay for the $2000 vacation this summer to the beach. But when it comes to improving or saving the marriage all of a sudden she becomes a money manager guru and want to properly budget.

Again the statement itself is perfectly fine... BUT only saying all this when it comes to saving the marriage and not when exhibiting IB when buying things for the house or vacation planning is hurtful and makes me feel marriage is at the lower on the list of importance. I guess I should just view it as she is still not in love and she is willing to spend money on things she really enjoys and we are not something she enjoys so there is this push back... BUT she is willing so I guess I should just focus on that positive.

Just one of those things that knocks down the love bank a bit... and a lot of those little knock downs take a toll.

Remember how difficult it is to PoJA, we aren't mindreaders and your wife is completely new to this programme.

Really, MB often preaches that it's better to spend money on enhancing your life together as opposed to counselling (babysitters etc for UA time)

In her own way, she may have been trying to enhance the marriage by creating a welcoming attractive home and fun vacations? Unless you explicitly complained, as she did here, how would she know you didn't appreciate the way she spent money? Even if you did, giving and accepting complaints is an advanced skill you and she have yet to crack together.

I've not done the paid for counselling but from what I can gather it isn't an endless financial commitment like some counselling can be. It seems fixed fee so I think your wife's objection is actually easy to overcome (and arguably quite sensible).

It's great you don't mind losing some stuff to pay for this. What a great way to model 'marriage comes first' behaviour. A way of showing how you value this plan. If you do, maybe she will.

Emotionally you're going to feel this way after so much lovebusting - intentional or otherwise. Logically though you know that anything run down can be built back up again.

Everything sounds very positive to me.

I agree.

We have spoken many times in the past when she "in her mind" believes we have discussed or agreed about spending money, but in reality we either never discussed it or just talked about it with no decision made at all. Don't know if she literally thinks a decision is made or willfully pushes on in full IB manner. But I have most definitely shared that I want to be apart of decision making when it comes to expenditures outside of budget.

I hope we can get 10 under our belt and maybe move on, but I will do what is necessary to keep moving forward.

It's just stuff... wife and marriage is most important thing only behind relationship with God.

That is the internal battle! Fighting those emotions.

There is positive.