IB is probably one of the biggest issues we have (which includes the OS friend / interaction) that makes me uncomfortable. I believe dealing with the IB issues that are not as "emotional" are going to be much less difficult than the IB issues that related to OS relationships.

OS relationships being the "elephant in the room". For example... the example in previous post about the restaurant and the manager. It is a major love bank withdrawal for my wife to keep going there and interacting with him so I shared my complaint.

Now from a POJA perspective I am to understand her point of view. She will say there is nothing more than a surface relationship as in she only interacts with him when she is there and would speak with him if she saw him out of the restaurant, but would not be calling him or going out with him or building anything more. And I do believe that (in this situation). BUT it still makes me very uncomfortable due to all that has happened in the past and simply because I believe in strong boundaries with OS. The fact my wife knows it withdraws love units and makes me very uncomfortable and had still continued (I have shared this in the past with her) it withdraws even more units as it is a choice to continue it anyway knowing how it makes me feel.

Now talking with Steve his focus on POJA (for now) and making sure we create a very safe environment to be able to share each of our perspectives. He wants us to establish an understanding... create a safe environment to share our feelings. He wants us to both express true interest in understanding our two perspectives so we can come up with a solution that works for both of us when deal with issues.

I can look at POJA guidelines and get this. Guideline #2 is very clear about this. I am having trouble seeing how the "elephant in the room" issues get resolved though. Those issues make me very uncomfortable and I can't ever see being "ok" or not feeling uncomfortable.

I do understand that my wife may not have any inappropriate thoughts about the men she interacts with and I understand she doesn't see herself as doing anything "wrong" and I am not saying she is doing anything "wrong", but these are areas I have strong core beliefs about strong boundaries that I don't see how this is going to work out.

POJA says I must understand my wifes perspective and she wants me to see her perspective and understand she is not doing anything "wrong" and that these relationships (whether they are early in the development stages or friendships that have been growing) are harmless friendships. So yes... I can see how she feels that way and acknowledge that is how she feels.

So she is going to expect us to come up with some sort of mutual agreement. How can you have a mutual agreement on this????

The OS relationship(s) of the past done during SSL she feels were not wrong... so with POJA I think she is going to expect me to GIVE IN sort of speak and let her have those relationships or new ones if I am to really "understand" her. After all... if she has to lose them or not build them then she sees it as I am hurting her.

I guess my point is... with the "elephant in the room" issues with OS if I have it my way they will be a thing of the past and those OS friends will only happen when they are our mutual friends or friends we feel safe about with boundaries. But then that is my desire and maybe not hers.

We / I haven't got to talk much with Steve about the "elephant in the room" other than Steve knows my concerns, but he is attacking POJA as the basis for everything in the future and then will build on it.

I know the default for POJA is if you can't agree then you don't do it. So yes... that is good for me and may build type B resentment with wife.

For example in the He Wins / She Wins chapter 16 titled "How to Negotiate When Doing Nothing Is What One Spouse Wants" it says:

So looking at the above this is a win / lose... where if I get what I desire (boundaries with OS relationships) I win and she loses... UNLESS she one day changes her mind.

So hopefully you see my struggle with this. How can I say let's find an agreement where you CAN spend time with that GUY or do this with that GUY. I just don't see that ever working.

Sorry for the length.

MSM,

So if these interactions are so innocent, there should not be an issue with recording them and sharing it with the spouses of these OM?

God Bless
Gamma

Recording independent behaviour doesn't make it any less a love buster and the fact it may be innocent is neither here nor there either.

Focus on practicing poja first. It's far easier to tackle difficult pojas when you are practised and have seen the benefits.

As for your wife's OS friendships she can get all the fulfilment of them in her relationship with you so she won't lose out at all. She mainly doesnt want to be judged disrespectfully and to be given a free choice here. Both of which will be tackled by the program.

I would snoop in the meantime because there are concerns re her behaviour and its the best way to reassure yourself and build trust while she works on eliminating IB.

I thought you already started snooping? Do you have any spyware on her devices?

I did, but she got a new work phone and I was able to see things for a while, but if you recall she had the blow up about me being able to see her work email (claiming hippa violation), but said at anytime I could see the phone.

So right now I don't have access to 100% any time I want and so forth on that phone. The times I have spot checked it "with permission" nothing has been there, but she could be deleting things. I don't sense this... especially with the efforts she is putting in.

This is something I believe Steve Harley is going to speak with her (at some point) about me having full access vs only when I ask permission. Steve and I probably need to talk more on this as well.

Today my wife asked if I would go with her to the above mentioned restaurant as the "dish" she wants is going to no longer be there after this week. I told her I could not go today, but I could go tomorrow (not sure I am not being reluctant with going together), BUT definitely better than her going by herself in this situation.

Well... we had POJA'd going to Subway for today as I only had 30 minutes and in order to go it had to be quick, but an emergency happened at wife's work and she could not go in the end. So in the past when she could finally go to lunch she would have just gone to this restaurant where this OS manager person works and it would be a big LB to me. It is important to note it is not because he is a guy... there are other reasons I have mentioned in past.

So we took a walk this afternoon and I asked if she was able to get out for something to eat and she said she did. She went to the Mexican restaurant. She said she really, really wanted to go to her restaurant to get the soup, but because it makes me uncomfortable she didn't go.

She didn't say it negatively or sarcastically either. I gave her praise and told her that I was very grateful for her following MB concepts and I could see how she was really working and taking my feelings into consideration. Now she still wants to go with me tomorrow as she said she really has a craving for the soup. I am not sure I am doing it without reluctance, but at this point I am WILLING to go and see how I feel and what interaction if any with the manager. I think my goal is if he comes over is to inject myself into the conversation in a major way so he is not focusing entirely on my wife.

Baby steps...

Just note that these are contradictory requests.

Ok... stop going to that restaurant (by yourself), but I am willing to go with you.

I could describe the why in more detail than I have in the past, but it doesn't really matter why... it is how I feel about this specific situation.

I am new to MB but have not gotten the impression that OS relationships are to be negotiated. The Risk of Opposite Sex Friendships In Marriage

No they should not be negotiated and should be eliminated. Especially if your marriage has experienced infidelity, but every marriage would be safe if OS friendships were eliminated. It's all about boundaries.

According to my wife there is not real friendship with the Manager. She says he checks on a lot of regular customers... but with my wife's gregarious and friendly nature men are drawn to her naturally. Regardless she says the only conversation is things like... how is your day, how is your soup or food or whatever and that is about it. I don't know for sure.

The whole point of my post (several posts back )that has started on this track right now is my wife chose to not go (without me), because of my request and because she is trying to follow MB and knows it would bother me.

I am extra sensitive at the moment to just about any OS interaction with my wife due to the past real OS friendship that happened during a long Secret Second life time period.

Part of what I want to learn is what is classified as an OS friend. Like I have said in the past... my wife has a way of making you feel you are close friends shortly after you have met her just because she can talk to you non-stop about anything. For many men this is appealing when you first meet someone as they seem so forward, friendly and sometimes misread as having interest in them.

Ultimately I am going to rely a lot on Steve Harley's counseling and possibly pose some questions for Dr Harley.

I think you should become much firmer and more confident in your instincts on this issue. I don't care if they serve lobster in a gold box for free - her favourite dish is not as important as your feelings.

You don't have to demand or even get shirty when you say no. You can smile when you firmly and confidently tell her it bothers you. But stop all this justifaction about WHY it bothers you. It makes you sound unsure of yourself.

It's the poor counsellor all over again. She wants you to go somewhere where she can educate you to be more trusting. Huge DJ.

She needs to let it go and hopefully her acquiescence means she is. Deception is a huge love buster and every time she even mentions the restaurant it's a withdrawal.

For what it's worth I think your instincts about the manager are probably spot on. Men are more attuned to the subtle signals from other men just as women can read each other's cues.

As quite a gregarious personality myself I've been shocked at men's reactions to what I see as sociable manners at times. Men read a lot more into that and you are right to offer your wife the male perspective on it.

I agree... I will be talking with Steve Harley about this as this is something I am going to need his help in guiding. He has asked to allow him to help sell MB and concepts especially for more emotional areas like this. My wife saying she chose not to go (even though she wanted to), because of my feelings IS a BIG step right?

Indie... so what do you do when you are around men... do you change your personality? Do you tone it back?

My wife could go to any restaurant and if the manager came by to check on her (as managers in general sometimes do with any customer) she would just be herself and speak friendly and gregariously and so forth. In general this does not bother me. It is when it becomes regular, prolonged, and the guy shows interest or friendship starts building.

For example... if it was me and a female manager was checking on me and she was staying longer than she should or spending too much time I would redirect her, by thanking her and wish her a good day and she would get the hint.

My wife being a natural talker may not do anything other than keep talking or interacting with the person... so it is possible a male manager could just hang out 10 or 15 minutes just talking about the restaurant or probably any surface subject and my wife may not redirect the person until it eventually started to interfere with her being able to finish lunch on time.

What I really want is my wife to be intentional about how she interacts with men. To be conscious of her interaction and aware that her friendly nature can send mixed signals and adjust that interaction. And to simply not build friendships with OS unless it is OUR friends that we agree on.

I can't even explain what I really am trying to say... this is an area that I simply know I interact with women in the way I would want my wife to interact with men... but not a single one of those women think I am an unkind person or unsociable. They just don't get any mixed signals and I don't have the conversation or time with them to build anything that could endanger our marriage.

Yes it is and I'm not really worried about her. I think she will do fine and is up for learning. I'm more concerned about you second guessing yourself. Don't feel guilty and never ignore your instincts.



I'm not married but I want to be and I take it more seriously than I used to. I wouldn't want to marry someone who didn't know when they were flirting.

For years I ignored a general male opinion that I was flirtatious, viewing it as weird and judgy. But I got into SO MUCH trouble with the nice 'friendly' guys who liked it. Now I appreciate that men have a different perspective to mine and only a fool would ignore it.




It's an advanced skill to drive using someone else's eyes. She's starting to learn, so just give it time.

Very good idea and please keep us updated with their responses.

As of Dec. 26th my wife told me she has planned separation, saw "collaborative" lawyer and wants me to work with her to plan a "collaborative" separation to divorce.

She said if I wasn't willing to work "collaborative" on separation... meaning if I try to fight anything there is no hope for restoration of marriage.

We had started seeing Steve Harley January 2015. We ran out of money in July 2015. I believe we had purchased a total of 25 sessions over that time period. Steve focused on POJA and building connectedness. This was a slow process for my wife and I. We also didn't get anywhere near 15 hours of time together.

Steve started us on POJA and it was slowly going. Steve described getting that going, build some connectedness and as she would by in to POJA this would start to snowball effect into something better to the point where we could move to some of the bigger issues. Of course this is my laymen and probably flawed description of his initial intent.

I felt we were making progress and my wife felt some progress and I believe Steve was noticing some as well.

We simply ran out of money!!! After a few large expenditures (Vacation with family and getting house ready for sale) I have had to pay the house late the last 6 months and still not out of it yet so could not afford Steve Harley. Not that it matters I didn't fully agree on the BIG expenses on the house, but in the end it is what she wanted and I honestly felt I couldn't go against it.

Without the accountability and without a weekly plan things started slipping back. Not back to where we were... but just back to not really being connected very well.

I have asked my wife specifically what I am doing. All I have gotten from her so far is she feels controlled and feels like she is suffocating and needs a break. (We have 3 kids 6,8,10).

She finally shared that it was a big blow to her for me to say she had an emotional affair (way back before seeing Steve Harley) and back to when she was going out with another guy for lunch and so on... you can read earlier posts for that.

She said it killed her that I said I had no idea whether it ever got physical or not. Again this statement was 2+ years ago.

She said it killed her that I did not trust her. She said "not blind trust", just trust her. I told her over the last 2 years that was building and I have given trust as I have not questioned her.

She said that when I have shared about how something has made me uncomfortable with her relationship with another man she felt like I was saying she was going to have an affair and accusing her of doing something wrong. (Early on I was struggling with Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, Angry Outbursts), but she said she wasn't feeling that back in 2014. I am pretty certain I have not been doing it since. I have asked her to tell me if I was and she hasn't.

I have shared with her about being careful around the teenage boys we have had at the house in my youth small group (a long time ago) and she took it as I was saying she was going to do something wrong with the boy(s) when my only intention was to let her be aware of "long periods of time together", "lots of hugs" could confuse teenage boys with raging hormones. It also made me a little uncomfortable after a while. I can't say how I relayed this to her in the past as it has been years. But the same situation came up with a teenage boy (pastor's son) from church watching our kids... since I had some Harley teachings at this point I simply requested she be guarded with her interaction with the 17 year old.

Where I come from on this is I was the young man that spent time with an older women and she was very friendly with me when I was 16. In the early stages that woman would have put a stop to any forward advance I could have possibly made, but after 2 years of being close with (husband and wife) she and I fell into a relationship when I was 18 while the husband was always away. That is my background on this. I would never think my wife would do anything, but I have been there and I know what young mean "may" be feeling.

From my wife's perspective she felt I was ultimately saying she could not be trusted even with babysitter. From my perspective I know I am thinking about how the boy may be feeling or thinking, BUT yes... with my insecurities it bothered me at some level.

In previous posts I talked about male friendship that was budding with manager at restaurant and since we were seeing Harley I had let her know it (at the moment) was uncomfortable for me as she had built this relationship in secret earlier. I do not believe there is anything there other than a passing friend (everyone is a friend to my wife), but it at the time was making me uncomfortable. She still went a couple of times over a 4 month period for lunch... I even took her there a couple of times and there was a couple of times where she didn't, because of how I felt.

I have since found they think I have been suffering with depression for over 6 years now so I have started taking Wellbutrin. I don't know how much of my depression has affected me... but I know about 2 months after we could no longer see Steve Harley I can look back now and see where I would SHUTDOWN or BE QUIET or whatever you want to call it when things took place that were hurtful.

As of a week since she announced what she wanted to do she has made it clear she feels she must separate no matter what for at least a season and she has thrown out 3 months several times. Separate homes, figure out kid situation. From a money standpoint her parents have the money and are paying for her... they would NOT offer their money to help with counseling.

She said if I don't work to make a "collaborative" separation work then there is no hope.

What little I have left on credit card I have scheduled an appointment with Steve tomorrow where I will take 15 minutes with him and she has the rest to share her feelings. Even if he were to convince her to continue counseling and fight for her marriage especially with an all in willing husband... we can't afford Steve and would have to go to someone local. The one counselor that knows us well would obviously be her default, but I know many of you hear were definitely against him and I see that. So now I am wondering if there is a way to find a counselor that teaches Marriage Builders in our city? How do you find this?

My wife says she doesn't want this, but feels she has no choice but to separate.

I am obviously doing something that is BAD for her. She has just said she feels controlled and I believe this all ties back to "BOUNDARIES" with opposite sex. She has said she feels I need the last word.

She gave an example... she said that she has heard me say at least 5 times in the last few days that I believe Dr. Harley's program can help us and he has a working plan. Her response was that Dr Harley can't do anything if we don't both get right with God... she said Dr Harley does have a tool set or plan, but she feels like I worship him, because I have referenced him so much.

She gave another example where she has heard me say "if you are willing" and she has said she HATES hearing that as to her it sounds like I am saying she is not willing.

Most of this is stuff she is unloading now. She said that she has mentioned these in the past and perhaps she has, but what she doesn't do is at the time something bothers her she doesn't share it right away. Over the years she does tend to keep things in and they all come out later... I thought we were learning to share complaints when they happen so we can deal with them quickly with POJA so it doesn't become something huge like apparently it is.

I am sorry for the length, but at this point I am difficulty in seeing hope. At this point separation is what she wants... she says for a season... stating 3 months and then re-evaluate. But without any plan of recovery / restoration... meaning all we do is separate then I don't see any hope.

I am all in to hear the truth of anything I do wrong, but I NEED her to tell me and not bottle it up and wait until it is explosive or toxic which apparently she is at.

Thank you for listening and feel free to share whatever you are willing.

You stated the basic problem at the very beginning of your post - you didn't get enough hours of undivided attention. 15 hours is the minimum to maintain a love bank balance; if you want to build one up you need more like 20 hours a week.

Purchasing sessions without putting in the UA time will not work. That is just cherry-picking the program. You need to work the whole thing. We could have told you that, if you had bothered to continue posting during the past year.

I know and believe that and have asked for that UA even before seeing Harley. My wife didn't see it as a priority, but she was willing to go out every few weeks. I asked for time at night after kids were in bed and so forth, but with her sleep issues she normally was in bed 30 minutes after kids.

Hashing out everything here isn't going to solve anything, but I simply don't know what to do and I am trying to be honest with what I see and what little she is willing to share with me on her feelings.

The session with Steve now is simply to have my wife air out whatever it is that she is hurt by and perhaps Steve can give her a picture of where we can be if WE would both be willing to follow it and stick to it. The problem is there is no money for anyone outside of our normal insurance. So I do feel like it may be just throwing out money we don't have, but I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO!

I cannot explain anything to her about Marriage Builders without her feeling negative about it. I don't know why other than I have strongly felt it is a planned solution that I know could help bring us to being in love and compatible. She doesn't like to hear me say that.

And yes... I should have been posting all along or at the minimum after we ran out of money with Harley as there was the beginnings of something small and building and the momentum stopped.

And I may pay the ultimate price. I can also take a lot of blame for not getting it right or implementing things right or struggling in depression (not recognizing it until last week) and so on, but that isn't going to change anything... I need to have an action plan that maybe only I can do at this point with hopes my wife will come to have feelings enough to find it worth fighting for. She has issues of her own as well.

Right now she just says there would have to be change and I have asked her to share exactly what change is she wanting. I am willing to see if you would start her own post here, but at this point I don't think she would. Just looking for advice from this point.

Hmm, you keep saying "I am willing..." then list something for her to do.

Other than the depression, what are her complaints?

What UA could you do tonight?

Also, are you snooping?