First post here.

I am the husband.

The idea of a love bank really hit a chord with me. That is why I am here. It really is the only thing about marriage I have ever read that makes any sense.

I am not totally miserable, but our marriage is not what it once was. I hear this all the time from my male friends how difficult marriage is. For us, it has not been difficult. Generally I feel blessed being with my wife, but I know some things are clearly not right.

We are not religious, nor will we likely ever be. We both believe in a greater power or connection to the universe, but don't go to church or anything like that. Neither of us can stand the hypocrisy of others.

We don't have kids, nor to we want them. I can't imagine raising kids in this world of the internet and iphone devices.
I would not allow it at all, and I know that would be a disaster for a kid in today's world of social networking. I dislike facebook, twitter etc.. I prefer real interaction with people. I don't text either. I need to at least hear someone's voice. I am 50 and lived just fine without all this sillyness. My wife has an iphone and uses it moderately. It's not a obsession. I do have an older cell phone. It is a phone and that is all. She makes fun of me, but she can get a hold of me anytime.

I have an internet based business. I work at home. My wife chooses not to work. I told her she didn't have to work if she didn't want to but that we would have to live more moderately.

We have 3 cats that are basically my wife's kids. I like them too, but she is obsessed with them. It's good for them, the cats!

We have been living together for 8 years. Married for 2 years.

We live in a nice upscale area. Small home with a sweeping view of the San Francisco Bay. It's a big lot, and we both love gardening. She does the front and I do the back. I grow all organic vegetables she grows flowers and exotic plants. When in season, it looks like you should have to pay to view her garden! It's the talk of the neighborhood in the spring!
She is an amazing gardener. I just grow vegetables that I eat.
She doesn't eat much of what I grow.

I am more health conscious than her. She believes she has better genetics than I and she stays trim and fit by doing nothing. It's pretty much true. She eats a fair amount of junk food and looks great. She has a thin attractive sexy body. She is also Asian. I am typical 6-0 tall white guy 170.

She spent her teenage years in Europe so she is very multicultural and speaks 3 languages. I really love this about her, because she can view the world through different perspectives than just the west coast of America lens.

She is much more materialistic than I am. She came from a famous family but not a wealthy family in Asia. I grew up upper middle class white suburban California.

Oddly enough, I am much more romantic than she is. She has no interest in walks on the beach or candlelit dinners. She would rather go out to a restaurant for dinner, but she is not going to go on a picnic or ride a bike along the water. I love that kind of thing. Her, not so much. She gets cold, hates the wind, very temperature sensitive. I just don't like it too hot.

There are moments that I know I married the right girl. I still feel that way, but in general I don't think things are going in the right direction.

Hi unorthodox, welcome to Marriage Builders. Would you say it feels like you are falling out of love? Because that is the sense I get from reading your post.

It takes 15 hours per week of undivided attention meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs to MAINTAIN romantic love. IT is effective when you are out on dates. My H and I have been married for 14 years and are in love. We go out on 4 - 4 hour dates a week. If we stopped doing that, we would fall out of love. The intimate emotional needs are affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment.

Your paragraph above describes a typical problem with married couples: they both like doing different things. The solution is to put aside those things you like INDIVIDUALLY and find a THIRD option that you both enjoy doing together. You should look for win/win solutions, rather than win/lose because win/lose creates incompatible marriages.

The policy of joint agreement teaches couples to negotiate solutions that are good for their marriage.

Marriage Builders is a very precise, step by step program that restores the romantic love to your marriage. Please read this article to get an idea of the program: How to Create Your Own Plan to Reso...r Marriage Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.

There is still love between us.. no doubt, but it has dwindled. The bank account is lower than it was.

Since we both are around one another most all the time, it seems strange to go out on a date when we live together. I work at home, and she is a stay at home wife. I wake up everyday, and she is smiling in the morning. I have had other girlfriends in the past that wake up miserable. She doesn't do that.. and I love her for that. I don't want to start my new day with a cranky wife.

I get the idea of quality time together. We do that at least twice a week, usually we drive into the city and eat, shop, see friends etc. We both enjoy that. She however is basically a loner. She really has no deep friendships. She isn't a people person but one would never know that because when she is around people, she is really a great hostess, cordial and always kind, giving and respectful. But once they leave, she always comments something along the lines of.. "they were really draining" or "they were nice, but small doses please".

Where on this site can I get a detailed look at "what" is considered undivided attention? I assume that is not going to the movies or driving in a car in traffic.

I understand you have a "caring" love, but I am talking about something very different. It is romantic love that sustains marriages, not caring love.


And it is amazing that a couple can fall out of love spending 24/7 together because they are not meeting each others emotional needs. We had a couple here earlier this year who worked together in their business all day and were together every night. Yet they fell out of love because they were just existing together much like roommates.

There is nothing more FUN that getting ready for a date and going out. I realize the notion is foreign to you now, but that is part of the problem. Having fun, enjoyable dates is what keeps romance alive and makes marriages fun.

Just think how it is when you are at home. You are not dressed nicely and are probably very distracted by about anything and everything. Something like the towels in dryer or a phone call from your relative can distract you and your wife.

Whereas on a DATE, you are dressed nicely, smell good and are each other's captive audience. It is a completely different environment.


That is ok. She doesn't need any friendships to create and sustain a happy marriage. My H is the same way. He can only take other people in very small doses on rare occasions. We are pretty protective of our leisure time and don't often care to squander it on other people. Our favorite thing to do is be alone with each other on dates.


Time spent in movies is not UA time nor is time spent with friends. Driving in a car is fantastic UA time because you are each others captive audience. One thing my H and I love to do is drive to a restaurant/place about an hour away. Our best time is time spent in a car. Dr Harley explains the concept of UA time here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_attn.html

The needs you should on focus on are:

conversation

affection

recreational companionship

sexual fulfillment

She must be an introvert so I would keep that in mind and be sure to never foist people on her. She will be desperately unhappy if you do. If she agrees to see other people, I would make sure she is truly enthusiastic and not making reluctant agreements. Reluctant agreements [sacrifice] are poison to marriage, because they create incompatibility and build resentment.

What could your wife do that would make you the happiest? [and be done together]

Here's a good thread about UA.
The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

We do talk.
She lacks affection. She is not a cuddler, doesn't like me laying next to her even watching TV. Sex is great with her, but has become more and more of a rare event. Twice a month probably. After sex, a couple minutes of snuggling, then she has things to do. It frustrates me.

Like many married couples, I always feared the stories about how sex disappears after marriage. I swore that would never be me. I waited until I was 48 to get married just to make sure I had a great sex life for most of my life.

My wife was the greatest sex partner in the history of humanity for our first 5 years together, before marriage.
She lost her dad, and grandfather that next year and sex just disappeared. I could understand that, so I just gave her space to heal. I am not one to pressure anyone for sex. I tend to probably be more passive and prefer my partner to instigate because that way I know they want it and are ready.
I'm always ready. I don't think I have ever turned down sex to any lover.

We were both overly experienced sexually when we met. She had many many partners and so had I. I never saw any benefit to being with a inexperienced woman or a virgin. I have never had any interest in virgins. Zero. I have probably been more attracted to promiscuous women going back to high school. They were more fun, open minded, adventurous and I always felt I could communicate with them better and be myself. I had a female friend in college who would call me and tell me erotic details of her dates as if I was one of her girlfriends. I really enjoyed hearing the female perspective of dating and sex. I really learned a lot from her and valued her friendship. We are still friends to this day. We never dated because we both felt dating might ruin our friendship. I think we were right because we are still friends. Her, after two failed marriages and four kids. Me after 15 failed girlfriends over 25 years.

My pattern has been date until she starts complaining about things, then end it and move on. That usually would happen at about 1 to 3 years. There was always some kind of irreconcilable differences. I could go through every X girlfriend and remember the "deal breaker"

15 girlfriends ended:

Drug or alcohol addiction, (1)
a change in religion, (1)
violence, (1)
loss of sexual desire, (3)
threats, (1)
excessive weight gain, (2)
infidelity, (2)
strange or unexplainable behavior, (2)
a bratty kid, (1)
friend that hated me. (1)

They would always complain and blame me for the issue. I made them cheat, gain weight, trash my house, couldn't deal with their kid, stressed them out so they did drugs or drank. It was always complete BS.

I understand there are 3 sides to every story. I'm not perfect, but figured when I found the right woman there wouldn't be any of these issues. My wife and I had a pretty perfect relationship until her dad died.

That one really was hard for me because she said nothing good about him before he died. He was completely neglectful and did nothing for her while he was alive. After he passed, it was all about how wonderful he was, and how much she missed him. When he was alive, she would not even take his calls.
After he passed, he was a saint and she would lit candles for him in a shrine she made everyday for two years until just recently. It cost me probably a $1000 in candles.. kid you not.... but I have never complained about it. Just saying.

This is the canary in the mine. The sex is the first thing to go. When your wife loses interest in sex that means she is falling out of love. She is falling out of love because you don't spend UA time together. [ie: dates] Women need 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. Since you know she enjoys it, it has to be the emotional attachment.

This article addresses this problem beautifully: The question of the ages:How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?

This might not be a concern at all, but is your wife encouraged and expected to make complaints when something makes her unhappy? Because if she is not, that would be very destructive to your marriage. A complaint is an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage and an irritation in a bad marriage.

I know you said you dropped these other people for various reasons [they sounded like very good reasons too!!] but complaining is critical to a good marriage as long as the complaint is handled correctly. Complaining in Marriage

I can tell you have a really solid marriage with a great foundation and if you implement UA time along with the policy of joint agreement your marriage will regain the passion it once had. I would focus on that PLUS making decisions - ALWAYS - that you are both enthusiastic about. If she is an introvert, I would make sure she is enthusiastic about your socializing. If she is making reluctant agreements, that is the road to incompatibility.

The program I am describing can be found in the book His Needs, Her Needs. There is a workbook that comes with it called Five Steps to Romantic Love. They sell those books cheap here or you can get them on amazon.com. I think you can get HNHN on kindle for PC's.

Why should I have sex?

For me it is more than anything for health reasons. Sex is the most healthy thing I can do for my body. Beyond the endorphin rush etc.. it lowers my heart rate, lowers my blood pressure, keeps my cardiovascular system strong.

I made this very clear to my wife that I am always going to have a good sex life. We talked about this early on because of experiences I had in the past. I will not be in a non sexual relationship. I didn't say it in a threatening way, but I made it clear that if she chose to abandon our sexual relationship, I would likely find another partner in one way or another to keep myself happy, and to keep her happy so I wouldn't have to bother her for sex.. which from my experience, no woman wants (to have sex against her desires)

Now, this far into our marriage, with sex dwindling, I could easily see myself seeking another partner for sex, but I don't feel a need nor would I desire an intimate emotional relationship with another woman such as an affair etc. I know that would lead to drama and headaches.

I was told by an elder gentleman when I was in college that if you put a marble in a jar every time you have sex before marriage you will fill up a very large jar to the brim. Then after marriage, every time you have sex, you take a marble out of the jar. He said you will never get the marbles out of the jar!

I had to laugh at this, but in some way I think that stuck with me because most married men, friends of mine etc basically said the same thing in one way or another.

This all sounds like it makes sense.

Let me also say that I really appreciate you taking the time to respond with excellent advice and direction!

This has always seemed obvious to me. The unusual thing about my wife is that she doesn't ever want to take walks, or do typical romantic things most women crave. I think that is one of the main reasons I married her. She never required that kind of endless effort to prepare her for sex. Men often use the term "high maintenance". She has never been like that and is not like than now.

She does like to go out to dinner, but that never leads to sex. She comes home, turns on the TV, the three cats pile onto her, and she falls asleep. It doesn't really bother me, as I find it quite charming to see the four of them all cuddled up together sleeping in bliss. I can imagine not wanting that for her. That really is her bliss.

We don't sleep together very often. Good sleep to me is an absolute and I don't sleep all that well when my wife comes to bed. She tosses and turns, snores, gets up much earlier than I do. I think we both sleep better not sleeping in the same bed. I know this would be an issue for most couples, but for us it's not an issue. We are both fine with it. Sometimes we do sleep together, but not often.

I don't think we can afford to go out to dinner an hour away 4 nights a week. The problem with my wife is that walks, picnics, wine and cheese in the park, a bike ride along the bay are not on the table for her. She is just not very romantic in any traditional sense. She is very unorthodox! I know I will have to figure something out.. but as of now, my mind is just blank on how to do this for her specifically... other women, that seems easy enough... but I don't like other women. I like my wife!

You will always be experiencing this if you learn how to maintain the emotional attachment in your marriage. Let's say you dump this woman and get remarried/shack up, this will all happen AGAIN if you don't learn to maintain the romantic love in your marriage. The only ETHICAL way of meeting that need is to make sure she desires sex. Committing adultery is unethical and cruel to your spouse. Adultery is as traumatic as rape, physical assault or the death of a child. You shouldn't even consider doing that your spouse.

A marriage should be a relationship of extraordinary care, so even hinting that you would do such a thing to your own wife, whom you promised to love and protect is really concerning.


This is very unethical. And impractical, because it almost ensures you won't get the sex you want. Does your wife know that you have such a cavalier view of fidelity? That would sicken most women.

Those are examples of what some couples like. You need to find what she likes.


You need to make *YOU* her bliss. That is the whole point here. I can understand that she finds more bliss in her CATS. That is what needs to change. She needs to find bliss in YOU.


Sleeping apart is the beginning of the end. It is terrible for marriages. You need to learn to sleep together. Sleeping apart leads to emotional detachment. You should be going to bed together so your internal clocks are aligned.

No, it is not easy for others. But you need to figure this out.


Have you told her that you are open to adultery? That is a very important thing for a spouse to know. She needs to know you are dangerous to her and feel entitled to commit adultery.

Dr. Harley would call yours the freeloaders approach:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

She knows... but she is very different than most women in that way. Absolutely for sure she is.

I certainly don't want to have an affair, but I am not going to live a non sexual life. That is not on the table. I made that perfectly clear to her and she agreed wholeheartedly. This was not just from my perspective but from hers also. Assuming I lost interest in her sexually, she would have the same rights to live a sex positive life.

The idea that one partner decides to go sexless, then insists the other partner follow because they choose a non sexual life makes zero sense to me. Never has, never will. That would be like telling my wife what she can or can't eat. I'm a vegetarian but I don't impose that on her. She can eat what she wants. I don't make that demand with religion either. But I had girlfriend who did. She insisted I convert to her religion so it ended. I was ok with her being religious. She wasn't ok with me not being her religion.

I think the reason my wife and I have been as successful as we have is because we don't make demands upon one another. We naturally just let one another be the person they are.

I have never met another woman that is like that. They all want to change me, but won't make an effort to change their flaws.

I think with my wife, we are able to live with one another's flaws better than most.

I don't think I am a freeloader because I am more than willing to work on our relationship. That is why I am here.. I don't see her researching on the web about our relationship.

What is presented here makes sense and is very insightful.

But to answer your question.. when she backed away from sex after her father passed, she actually encouraged me to have sex, it was talked about and openly communicated. It was her idea. But what she was not ok with was for me to get emotionally involved with another woman, which makes perfect sense.

One has to understand both of us came into this relationship with many many prior lovers.

Your approach to marriage is more likely to result in a sexless marriage, no matter who you are married to because you are holding a gun to your wife's head for sex. Holding a gun to her head is more likely to result in a sexual aversion than a romantic, sexual relationship because she is expected to perform on demand.

You are the homeowner who complains that his house is falling down and instead of fixing the house, you just find a new flophouse. But pretty soon that house falls into disrepair too.

On the other hand, if you just showed extraordinary care for your current house and fixed the problems as they occurred, you would get all the sex you need.

I would take adultery off the table. That is not a smart approach and it is certainly not an ethical approach. Not many woman appreciate hearing that their husband only married them to get some nookie. yuck...