When our marriage was at maximum stress (newborn third child, I was also the sole breadwinner), my now XH decided to deal with this by having an affair with someone who was also married and who lived far away in a place he visited for work. Eventually her marriage broke down and she ditched him. She was followed by others nearer home and then by a convicted felon with a fraudulent green card who managed to manipulate him into falling in love with her coached by her mother on the phone daily from Tel Aviv. There was blackmail and suicide attempts when he tried to break it off. That was the point at which I discovered the entire sordid mess which had been going on by then for at least 18 years and who knows what 'snacks' there were in addition to these, it ceased to matter.

You do not have to take either an ethical or a moral stand. The kind of women that are prepared to be your bit on the side are going to take you down. It is just a question of when.

His father followed exactly the same path except that his mother knew and did nothing. So the poison flowed from father to son. The children knew what their father was up to (children always know). Because their mother did nothing, they presumed that this was a normal coping mechanism and took it into their own lives.

Now, five years after the divorce, XH is heartbroken. He realises that he made the wrong choices, that his cheating was a downhill descent into a personal hell and that he could have chosen to work on his marriage problems in an adult way. Too late now :-)

The comparison is very real. Being a victim of adultery is as traumatic and painful as being raped or physically assaulted. Just ask any psychologist who treats adultery victims. I wouldn't be so cavalier about it if I were you. I don't think you understand how destructive it really is.

I suspect one source of emotional detachment in your marriage is due to your destructive and unethical philosophy of marriage. How could a woman feel emotionally attached to a man who has all but promised her that the competition is STILL OPEN if she does not perform to standard? When a woman gets married, the competition should be closed. You can't have an integrated, emotionally attached marriage when you behave like freeloader or a renter.

Your philosophy of marriage almost ensures you WON'T get the sex you want because it creates an emotional detachment that is necessary for women to desire sex. Your worldview is not strategic and won't help you get what you want.

Do you see yourself in these descriptions? I sure do:




A large % of married people also believe that beating or raping their wives is also an option. Does that make it ethical?


A good "friend" does not betray his "friend." A good "friend" does not enable destructive behavior. Enabling is not an act of "friendship."

In other words, people lie because they are cowards and don't want to face the consequences. Decent people are supposed to judge right from wrong. Our prisons are full of people who cannot judge right from wrong. With all due respect, you sound like a very young college philosophy major who is enamored with moral relativism because he has no wisdom yet. It sounds really cute on paper until he really thinks it through and sees all the obvious logical flaws.

This post by another board member seems very appropro:


People worry about being judged when they know they are doing something wrong.

From "Defending Traditional Marriage" by Willard Harley, PhD pg 143:



Dr Harley also discusses it here:

How to Survive Infidelity

Some of Dr Harley's posts to members on the weekend forum:

written to a WH: here

here

Unorthodox,

You wrote, I don't understand how you arrive at that comparison? Would it be correct for every person who has had sex outside of their marriage to be incarcerated in the prison system as rapists?

Because it is the violation of trust which a person invests in their significant other which makes them feel unsafe and forever changed. This is similar to the physical violation of the rapist which also makes the victim feel unsafe and forever changed.

In various cultures in many time periods adultery was see as a major crime, as it attacked the basic unit of society, that being the family. Perhaps in the US the basic unit is now the self?

In the new testament you have the story of the women caught in adultery being stoned, in Saudi Arabia it is still illegal, preserving the chastity of females is part of the motivation behind female circumcision. In most of the states in the US it was a crime having only recently been decriminalized.

You may laugh at or feel superior to these cultures and practices as being backward, barbaric and outmoded, but there is also a social structure which is maintained by them.

God Bless
Gamma

By the way, Dr. Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders, believes that adultery should be illegal. He believes there should be criminal and civil penalties for committing adultery. Much less severe crimes, such as embezzlement, physical assault, do have penalties. There was a time when adultery was illegal in most states. It is still illegal in some states and is illegal in the military.

While you think it is so positive, we know of people who have had nervous breakdowns or committed suicide or homicide. We have people in this forum who suffer post traumatic stress disorder from this experience. It is the worst act of betrayal a spouse can inflict on his spouse. It is so especially devastating to women, for example, that Dr. Harley recommends that women separate from an adulterous spouse in order to avoid psychosomatic disorders.

So, if you choose to commit adultery, we would suggest that your wife separate from you for her protection. Having an adultery "option" makes you a very unsafe person for her. I can understand why she would fall out of love with you.

You contradict yourself though. If sex was a purely physical act, then why shouldn't some 'manipulative women' take you at your word? If they exchanged house painting or cleaning for money you wouldn't care.

The fact is, it has a powerful effect and when you are careless with it, you are being careless with fire.

Actually it is Dr Hs recommendation that adultery is criminalised because people who have lost children and been raped count adultery as the worst experience of their life.

I was burgled the year after being betrayed. Guess which attack was most destructive to my life? Which cost me more? If I could only have put one set of criminals away, it would not have been the house breakers, but the house wreckers.

We've even had swingers show up here clearly, albeit surprisingly, devastated by an affair. Usually they cluelessly do not see that they created it. Often male, the swinger has no idea that cheapening sex for his wife almost always means giving the power of your marriage to another man.



It's not ethical mudslinging to tell you about the principles this website is based on. It's in the terms of the site you agreed to.

Also, any woman married to a man who thinks cheating is OK and has cheating friends is never going to feel very safe or important.

I agree, this sounds good and makes sense. But I know I need to be happy also. I am not going to allow another person to deprive me of my right to enjoy a sexually active existence.

However, I am working on taking the steps to healing our relationship as the first and best option.

So you agree with the idea that an adulterer should be stoned to death because this would set a proper example for others so that they live in fear properly?

Monogamy on paper sounds great... I agree. But I can't think of one couple that I know that has been in a 100% monogamous relationship over any extended period of time.

My first five serious girlfriends all cheated on me. I agree, it felt horrible because I expected so much more from them. I felt betrayed and angry. But these experiences led me to take a look at myself and question my own belief system that people are naturally monogamous. I still question that.

If "God" had anything to do with creating human beings in some kind of ideal image, then "God" didn't wire humans as well as penguins who simply pick one mate for life and it's a done deal.

I find the reference to animals being inferior not fully inclusive.
There are animals that mate with just one partner. Sexual monogamy is not the only discerning difference from many of the other animals that we share this planet with.

I'm not one who thinks of humans as some kind of superior life form that sits above others in the animal kingdom with some special link to "God".

What kind of species are we that have nuclear warheads pointed at one another ready to annihilate the earth with a touch of a button? Poison our oceans with trash and toxic waste so we can enjoy our luxury cars and nifty tech devices? Torture animals with factory farming practices for our religious based decadent holiday feasts?

When I came into this world, I really did feel a big sense of disappointment as a child when I was old enough to see the horrible flaws of humanity that I was associated with by my own DNA.

So based upon that knowledge.. how does one deal with the obvious imperfections of people, marriages, adultery etc?

So if this is how things actually are, what can I do about it? Can I change my view of the world so that I can live and be happy or should I continue to be angry and hateful, judgmental of others and harbor constant animosity toward my fellow humans, marital partner etc?

Dr. Harley actually agrees with you. He always says that affairs happen because we are all wired for them. He came from a background where each and every male in his family had cheated and he has seen the pain it caused. That is why he swore to be the first man in his family to not commit adultery.
(maybe someone can post a radio link?)

He says, and this is in accordance with your experience, that it takes more than a great relationship where you meet each other's needs to prevent affairs from happening. It takes precautions to prevent other people in your life from meeting your needs in a way, that would deposit enough "love bank deposits" to make you fall in love with them. He has been known to say regularly in his radio show, that although he knows he is wired for it, he goes to these precautions because he knows that it would be devastating to Joyce if he should stray.

Have you had the chance to talk with your wife about her emotional needs or to fill out the emotional needs questionaires?

I am not sure what your point is here. People can choose to be monogamous in happy, fulfilling marriages. Just because some people commit adultery does not mean it is a good choice.


Human beings have full control over their actions. They are not mindless animals who have no control over their instincts. Secondly, your experience at being betrayed should have taught you the lesson that being cheated on hurts. Yet, you want to do this to your wife.

What you should do is abandon unsophisticated world views that will not get you want you want and will only greatly harm the woman you vowed to love and protect. You can have the type of relationship you want if you abandon this world view and work on adopting a buyers marriage where your wife is in love with you.

Women are very motivated to make love when they are in a committed, safe, loving relationship with someone they are in love with. But you have to work to create and maintain desire.

Found a good post by Dr. Harley about this:



here

In other words, he would advocate separation or divorce. But adultery is a never an ethical response. And the fact that you are open to that idea pretty much guarantees that you won't get the sexual relationship you want because your wife is not safe. You are not in a committed marriage, but in a renters agreement that is defined as such:

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.[/quote]

Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyer believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Rentersbelieve Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.

Listen to the clips at the end of this thread.
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

It's excellent that you understand how prevalent affairs are, that actually affords you greater protection, should you choose monogamy.

We are wired for it and have to take preacautions against it. Dr H says those most at risk are those who think only certain types cheat, that they never would and that therefore they don't need caution.

Reading your posts it's clear you shopped around a whole lot before marriage so as to find the easiest, most seamless match.

While that is a very important dating stage at some point you have to be willing to accept complaints. To be able to skillfully respond to those complaints with love and care.

I think you've found a woman who fits you like a glove, unfortunately you've also got one who doesn't complain.

Complaints are like a friendly warning. Your wife instead chooses to preoccupy and please herself and only make love out of a spirit of generosity.

This is poisoning her love bank and therefore her sex drive. Women's sex drives, even when very high, are dependant on the love bank unlike men's.

A freeloader will find a terrific mate because he is looking for something which comes naturally. However to keep her he needs to provide a buyer's level of care - dealing with complaints.

You've come looking for answers and the love bank resonates with you - signs that you're willing to upgrade from freeloader/renter.

When we've got something great we are willing to work harder.

First off make sure she never gives sex out of generosity. That will make matters worse and create a sexual aversion. Once she's having willing sex she will stay in your arms a lot longer!

You should also make it clear there is nothing she has to compete with sexually, such as porn. This is why some women allow sex drive to die, by being generous and sexually competitive their own desire based on romance is completely forgotten.

We are wired for infidelity.

We are better to choose divorce if we can't get what we want.

We should resist infidelity even though it is natural for us not to.

If a wife is offering sex out of generosity one should turn it down.

One should avoid being around other people who make them feel good.

If one must go long periods without sex, one should not relieve themselves either with the help of devices such as porn.

Do you believe we should do what comes "natural" to us?

I do...

But at the same time, I also believe we can change what feels natural to us over time.

For instance, I changed by diet and now I find it natural to eat healthy organic foods. I started gardening and now if feels more natural to eat what comes out of the garden more than buying manipulated produce that doesn't have as much flavor.

So I feel by working on the principals here, assuming they work, I will naturally be able to have a better relationship with my wife over time. Change takes time. If I am to be patient with others, I must also be patient with myself.

The goal is to keep moving in the right direction.

You are exactly right. Bad habits can be changed and that is what we do here. While it might feel "natural" to have angry outbursts at a spouse, it is destructive to marriage. The most destructive behavior is adultery. While it feels natural, it should be avoided at all cost.