Unorthodox

You wrote in red, She had many many partners and so had I.

Does your W continue to communicate with any of these ex'es?

I had a female friend in college who would call me and tell me erotic details of her dates as if I was one of her girlfriends. I really enjoyed hearing the female perspective of dating and sex. I really learned a lot from her and valued her friendship. We are still friends to this day.....we are still friends. Her, after two failed marriages and four kids. Me after 15 failed girlfriends over 25 years.

This at least counts as a long term simmering EA, emotional affair, that started at its root as a voyeuristic sexual relationship. Did you maintain this relationship in secret through the years while you were with other partners? Did she do the same?

God Bless
Gamma

Telling me you intend on committing adultery if your wife does not put out is a freeloaders approach.


That is so sad and pathetic. Hopefully, you both can learn that adultery will not solve your problems. It will destroy your marriage.


You need to understand that adultery does not solve marriage problems. Most people do have many prior lovers. It does not mean that adultery will help their marriage. Marriage is supposed to be a relationship of exclusivity and extraordinary care.

That is the freeloaders approach. And it sure isn't accurate, because you have told your wife that she must meet your sexual demands or you will commit adultery.

Again, here is the freeloaders approach to marriage, whose definition is exactly what you stated above:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

That is exactly what you are doing. And I know how you came to be this way. It was from living together before marriage. That wrecks most marriages because it sets in place a renters approach to marriage: a tentative month to month agreement that means "you might be right for me today but wrong for me tomorrow." <-----that is your philosophy of marriage. That is the kind of thinking that ruins marriages.

I don't see why you bothered with marriage. It seems as if you view women/your wife as sexual fulfillment rather than as people. While you feel your wife is "different", I would suggest you simply found one with low self-worth who is pushing aside her needs as sacrifice. I don't know of ANY female who would be happy to be married to a man like this.

Sir, your wife won't have sex anymore because you do not treat her with care and you disrespect her very being...

I have never once demanded sex from my wife, or threatened her that I would leave her for another women if I don't get sex.

We are homeowners and take great pride and care in our home. We share in doing a lot of projects around here. I think that is one of the strengths of our relationship.

But I am, yes, interested in figuring out how to get her more sexually alive again. The 15 hours a week of bonding time seems logical enough. Not sure exactly how to do that.. but am willing to try.

I think her view is along the lines that she feels I have more than had enough sex in my life... certainly compared to most guys probably and she'll laugh at the idea that I would complain about not having enough sex. She looks at it more as a cumulative thing... where I look at it more as like drinking water or breathing. A simple necessity of a healthy life.

She would view sex as "haven't we had enough sex in our lives"?
kind of a "been there done that" view.

I think the last thing she wants is a guy who is going to judge her for her promiscuous past. I understand it perfectly, and from her perspective.

Neither of us came into the world of adolecence with a view that sex is some kind of magical bond between two people. She was abused by a female family member. My own mom I caught cheating when I was very young. She threatened to kill herself if I ever told my dad. I never did, and they are happily married going on 60 years of marriage.

So of course those kind of things skew one's view of the sexual world at an early age for better or worse. I think for us it's been a gift actually in hindsight. Neither of us have the typical tragic view of sexuality most people have.

For example, my wife had an affair a few years ago. She told me about it, it was a funny story, we both laughed about it and were over it in about 3 minutes. I don't hold that against her, or use it as leverage to do something to even the score. It was just a non issue based upon knowing her and her knowing me. It wasn't even a speed bump for us.. yet alone a marital train wreck.

My feeling is that if I can figure out a way to spend a lot more intimate quality time with her, that will be really helpful.

I don't think my wife would say she feels disrespected. If I only viewed my wife as sexual fulfillment we wouldn't be together now. I do think it is an important part of a marriage for both the enjoy sexuality as they see fit. I have never imposed sex upon my wife, but I know many men do, especially in other countries. I am the farthest thing from a dominant alpha type male. But I am not going to allow any woman force me into an unhealthy sexual relationship. I say that knowing for myself that not having sex is absolutely unhealthy for my body.

You have threatened to commit adultery if she doesn't meet your needs satisfactorily. That would cause most women to detach emotionally from their partner. That makes you a very unsafe, uncaring person.


Hopefully, you can start showing the same care of your marriage. Threatening to get your needs met outside of marriage IS NOT an example of such care.


We can help you do this, but it is important that you assure your wife you will not commit adultery. That is a deal breaker that shows a LACK OF CARE on your part. She can't be emotionally attached to a faithless partner who holds a gun to her head.


Then you should explain your needs to her. And without the gun to her head.


You have a very unrealistic, fogged out view of adultery that does not resemble reality. Marriage is supposed to be a relationship of extraordinary care and your marriage is not.


But you have only been married for 2 years. The way you describe your marriage indicates 2 people who don't really care very much about each other. Why be married at all?

I urge you to read His Needs/Her Needs (HNHN) as soon as possible and encourage your wife to read it as well.

Several things you've posted make it sound like your wife may have very low self esteem and not even know it. Her attitudes toward sex before and after marriage plus her always being in a good mood and not wanting the stereotypical romantic overtures resonates with me.

When I read HNHN I was blown away. Right there in black and white were so many things I was starving for, but had convinced myself I did not want or need because I did not want to be a bother to my husband. I was not one of those annoying, weak, needy women... To see them listed as common, reasonable needs was a major epiphany for me. I've started asking for them, I've started getting them, and our marriage is so much happier for both of us, not to mention I am in the mood for sex a whole lot more.

BTW your need for sexual fulfillment is normal but your clinical description of why you need it could not be much less appealing. What would motivate your wife have sex with you when you make it sound no more important that she be the one inducing your "endorphin release" than the person changing your oil or cleaning your house?

Hi Unorthodox-I don't post often here...but am a frequent reader of the forum. Your post really brought back memories of how our marriage was a few years ago.

So many things about your life sound like ours...no kids (by choice), cat lady wife, strong introvert wife, spiritual but not religious, internet based business, etc...

Like your wife, I am also a strong introvert, but have decent people skills. I can throw a great party and be the life of the party for awhile, but am completely drained for days afterwards.

Before our lives melted down when I discovered my husband's emotional affair, I would have sworn to you that I was happy without romantic things like walks on the beach, flowers, candlelight dinners, etc...

I could go on and on trying to explain exactly what was going on in my head, but the bottom line is I was always kind of proud that as an introvert, I didn't **require** interaction with other people the way those needy extroverts do (I don't feel that way anymore and no longer think people who recharge their batteries with social interaction as needy, but that's how I felt back then). I was too proud to ADMIT TO MYSELF, MUCH LESS MY HUSBAND, that I wasn't getting what I needed from the marriage. And as my needs weren't being met, I stopped meeting his. Like so many others here have said, sex was the first thing to go. My H thought he was the only one missing it and even suggested that I was gay, but it wasn't true, I missed it too, but things just didn't feel right between us any more...and I've never been one to fake it. Most of my life I had to count on myself and no one else. To admit that I wasn't happy, that I wasn't getting what I needed, well...that would have made me feel way too vulnerable...it was easier to convince even myself that I was happy.

Even as our marriage was falling apart and my husband was starting to have an EA with another woman, we were still "best friends". We were getting the 15+ hours together that everyone here talks about. Lots of recreation. But it was like two platonic friends spending time together. The romance was missing....the intimacy and extraordinary care was missing.

And I thought that was just fine and logical...who needs all that silly romantic crap anyway? I thought our only real problem was that there was less sex than we'd like.

Until I discovered my H's EA and that strong wall I'd built around myself came crashing down and all that was left was an extremely hurt and fragile wife that had to take a long, hard look at herself and realized that I needed love and affection from my H more than I ever had admitted.

That was 2 years ago and we're well down the path of recovery....we're in a marriage now that I never dreamed possible.

Turns out I don't need a lot of socializing with friends, family, co-workers...but that doesn't mean that I don't need a lot of intimate interaction within my marriage.

I just wanted to say, as an introverted woman myself, don't be so sure that your wife doesn't want more intimacy and romance in your marriage....she might not even realize she does.

And the cat situation...before we turned our marriage around, our cats were like MY children, his pets. After the dynamics in our marriage changed for the better, the cats are now OUR very loved feline family friends. I came to realize that I was using the cats to fill in for the missing love and affection in our marriage. I will always love our pets, but I was using them as a substitute for something else, which wasn't fair to anyone involved...not even the cats! Now my husband enjoys them more than he ever used to and even is more than happy to take care of the "cat chores" on a regular basis. And I enjoy them more appropriately...I just love them because they're nice cats, not because they are a substitute for something I wasn't getting in my marriage.

The folks here really do have good advice....my husband's EA was the most painful thing that ever happened to me. I hope you can get things on track before one or both of you go down that road.

Take care.

That's it in a nut shell.
A woman who loves a man may internalize what he has told her about how the ideal woman should be and convince herself that she is perfectly happy with that for some time.
You sound like an honest person and you have probably told your wife that you admired that she did not need all this hassle that other women required.

An indication what she likes from you though, can be the things you did together when you where dating. What did you do in your one-on-one time? What are the things she liked to do with you? If she wants, you can fill out the "emotional needs" questionaires on this website together.

I consider sex as very important in a marriage and agree that a sexless marriage is not an option. The man you met in college who told you that you would never empty the jar had either a very long engagement or a crappy marriage. Just because people are old, does not mean they are wise. I enjoy my husband daily and I do not see how a successful marriage can go without sexual fulfillment.

As has been said: sex is the canary in the marriage. When your wife was in love with you, sex was effortless. But when her father died and you gave her "space", she may very well have felt neglected. I do not know any women who ask for space when they are going through difficult times. Rather, most women will go to a person they trust for comfort. By giving her "space" she will probably have felt very left alone and/or has sought comfort elsewhere.

Before finding MB I had always thought, as is popular wisdom in all modern magazines, that you will stay in love if you have found the right person and if you fall out of love, the person just was not right. The materials here, made a lot of sense to me though and it has been very reassuring to me, that you can as easily fall back in love as you have fallen out of love. It is really that simple: meet emotional needs, avoid love busters and spend enough enjoyable one-on-one time and you wife WILL fall back in love with you.

Once your wife is head-over-heels in love with you again, you will notice that she will want to cuddle and make love with YOU after your romantic date and will leave the cats to theirselves.

If you follow the program, you will not only find that your marriage will be as hot as in the beginning, but you will also prevent the inexplicable "we have grown apart, we must have been not right for each other to begin with. Your marriage will be predictably and excitingly romantic and you will have your sexual needs met by the woman you love.

I'm impressed by what I am reading here. It looks like a great program. I am already working on spending more time with my wife in a conscious way.

When we got married, we did it non conventional. We had two weddings actually, one for her family and one for mine. It was just not reasonable to get everyone together from across the country at one place. We wrote our own vows and we were very clear about what those agreements were. We both agreed that we did not want a relationship that was based strictly upon sex or even monogamy for that matter. I don't think I can even name one couple I know that has not had some infidelity going on at some point. Even the best marriages I know of, friends, family, everyone has had some drama in this area. I personally don't believe people are naturally monogamous. We talked about what we would do if one of us strayed. We agreed that it would not end our marriage as long as it was not an emotional attachment to another. We both view sex as an act of physical enjoyment, not some kind of deep religious ritual that if broken blows down the whole house of cards a couple builds through the years. It's not that big a deal to us. But I know it is for others, and that is fine.. just not for us.

We also talked about money. My wife is pretty simple with money. If she has it... it's gone in 60 seconds. If she doesn't then she can be fine being more frugal. We like to eat out, but we don't shop at Nordstrom's. We don't participate in wasteful things like buying new cars and spending 1000's on computerized car repairs. I fix our cars and we drive only simple classics.
I make all the money and I pay all the bills. She has a monthly allowance for her to buy things she needs. She chooses not to work and understands the consequences of that choice. We live simple basically. We eat good, we have a nice paid for home, and no kids to worry about.

Yes, we had the kid talk. No kids. We both agreed. Hard to find a woman that has no kids and also doesn't want them. Be both did not like being kids ourselves and want no reminder of how awful it was growing up.

I was very upfront about not being in a sexless marriage. She understood this very clearly with her eyes wide open. No gun to her head.

We have been together going on 9 years now. Most of my friends have divorced or are still out in the singles bars or on single.com etc.

This is by far the longest relationship for either of us. So I think we both know something is working well. She is not a fighter. Neither am I, but I am not going to have any women remove sexuality from my life. As cavalier as that may sound, that is my choice and she is fully understanding of that. She has not removed sex from our life, but is she does, then I will go elsewhere. I am not going to wait around for 2 years for her to come around or get on the right meds or whatever. Life is too short.

That being said, I do believe that there are communication concepts that can work to help married people. I am certainly no expert, but there are good things in our marriage, otherwise we would not be together this long. Why be unhappy for even a month?

I am impressed with the material here, and appreciate the input, suggestions and feedback. I know it's natural for people to be judgmental and disapproving at times. Goes with the internet I suppose.

Just know that you are in the wrong place if you are looking for support for adultery. We have seen the destructive outcomes from affairs over the years. They are a disaster. So, if that is the kind of destructive support you are seeking, you are in the wrong place.

And yes, about 60% of marriages experience adultery. It is the worst thing that can happen to a person. It is as traumatic as rape, physical assault or the death of a child.

A marriage should be a relationship of extraordinary care and sexual exclusivity. What you describe is no more significant than 2 barn yard animals going at it in the barnyard. Why get married if you have no intention of being married? Just shack up so you can move on at will.

So, if you want help getting the kind of romantic, integrated marriage that will ensure you get the sex you want, we can help. If you want help committing adultery, you are in the wrong place because you won't find support for destructive, unethical behavior here. Perhaps you would be better off on a swingers forum. That is not what we are about.


This is true. Decent people can judge right from wrong. Those who cannot usually end up in prison. Right where they belong.

We view sexual fulfillment as much more than just a animalistic act much like a dog in heat. Sexual relations within a committed, loving marriage is an expression of love and an integral component of marriage. This is what separates humans from the animals. For women, sex is a very emotional act, not something that is just done to get off.

I would think it is possible to be in a marriage and be loving and happy where sex is not present. This might be the case with the very elderly married couples? Maybe there are couples that just aren't interested in sex or have little or no sexual drive for medical reasons.

I think the communication protocols of what are described here are of greatest value. Being respectful, not arguing, the love bank, 15 hours... these are all wonderful concepts.

I am not looking for advice on how to commit adultery. It can be tragic for some, not a big deal for others. When I hear of a friend who has cheated, I try never to condemn them, but try instead to understand the reasoning. I don't think it is only one person's fault very often. Sometimes is certainly is... but not always.

Women who use sex as a tool for manipulation or to get what they want materialistically is harmful. I've been through that and run from those kind of women. From my experience a lot of women do that whether they admit it or not.

I prefer mutually consenting, not manipulative or feeling like I have to bargain for sex. That feels like prostitution to me.

But if a wife doesn't want to have sex for whatever reason... and this is "withheld" from a husband for months, years or unreasonably long periods of time, I personally could not judge a man for pursuing sex outside his marriage. It is a common practice and probably for this reason... and apparently this has been going on for even 1000s of years.

Is there a better way? I think and hope we all agree. A kind and loving relationship that fulfills both individuals is what most hope for at the alter I would assume. No one goes into a marriage planning adultery.

Unorthodox,

In some ways I can understand your attitude, having to lie to your father for decades under threat of your mothers suicide must have really had a devastating effect on you.

Accepting your WW affair as a laughing matter? I think if you look into it, your WWs affair is the cause of her current sexual indifference to you.

Do you confront or expose the OM?

God Bless
Gamma

It sounds you have planned adultery from your posts. Rather than fixing your marriage so you would get the sex you need, your plan is to commit adultery. And I am sure some people are playahs and have no problem with adultery. Some people have no problem raping others or being raped. Some people don't mind beating up their spouses either. We have women on this forum who have been beaten up for years and they stay with their husband because that is their idea of "love." So it doesn't surprise me to hear you say you don't mind adultery. I would put you in their category.

But, marriage is supposed to be a relationship of extraordinary care and sexual exclusivity. If not, why be married? Why not divorce your wife now so she can get someone who cares for her? Wouldn't that be the kind thing to do?

The better [ethical] way is to leave the marriage rather commit adultery. However, women who are in love with their husbands don't have a problem making love to them. That is why it is so important to maintain the romantic love.

It's easy to come to the conclusion that if your wife isn't interested in sex with you that it won't hurt her for you to have sex with someone else, especially if she doesn't find out - but that's not correct. What she would like far better would be for you to attempt to get her to fall in love with you. If you did, she might become interested in sex, since women who are in love are typically much more enthusiastic about sex with the man they are in love with. Women who are out of love will give all kinds of reasons why they don't want to have sex, but the main thing is usually just that they aren't in love.

Raping someone and beating someone are criminal acts by law that put people behind bars.

I don't understand how you arrive at that comparison? Would it be correct for every person who has had sex outside of their marriage to be incarcerated in the prison system as rapists?

I'm not planning on having sex outside of my marriage, but yes, I have acknowledged it could be a potential option just as 60% of the married population has also. These things happen for reasons that make perfect sense for many married people if the CAN'T fix their situation.

I am here in hope of fixing the situation so it doesn't have to go down that road.

I think there is great wisdom on this site and I will keep digging in spite of the prevailing judgments being cast my way.
I understand that to be typical of human nature.

I'm ok with it, but would rather focus on solutions rather than
ethical mudslinging.

I never had to lie to my father because he never asked or knew about it. Why would I tell him? So he would divorce my mom and break up the family? It's best he didn't know. They are very happily married to this day for 60 years.

The cause of my wife's affair was that she was attracted to another man and enjoyed a weekend fling with him. He wanted her to leave me and that angered her and she got rid of him... not me. He was trying to possess her rather than just being thankful for the limited time they spent together. When he (whom I have never met) started speaking negatively of me, it angered her and she defended me and our marriage. She was open and honest about it.. and I listened and did not condemn her, because if I condemned her, she would have no reason to be truthful to me in the future.

People lie because the other party acts judgmental and negative.
People are open and honest with people that listen and don't cast judgment. A good friend will listen and offer advice or constructive criticism, but not ever in a judgmental tone. That is what friends are for. I think my wife and I are very strong in that area of honesty and friendship.

Fixing marriages is what this site is about and is the only option if you plan on having a truely happy and fulfilling future with your wife. As was said before, if a woman starts being less enthusiastic about sex, this is because she has fallen "out of love" almost every time.

It only makes sense to seek for the underlying problem and not focus on alternative way to get your needs fixed quickly. If water is coming though the ceiling of the bedroom, a sensible home owner would hardly say: "Well, I need my sleep and I am not willing to go without sleep because the bedroom is lacking. I will go to the boardhouse at the other end of the street to have my need for sleep met." The owner will of course want to find out what exactly is causing this problem. Because if you solve problems by just shutting that room off and living happily in your house and getting your sleep need met at the boardhouse, the happiness will not last long. Eventually, mold will take over and you will have to shut off room after room, untill you decide the house "is just not working for you" and abandon the house.

We applaud you for wanting to get to the bottom of this and to get back to a point where you and your wife will be meeting each other's needs enthousiastically.
What is worrying though, is that you leave the door open to have your needs met elsewhere. While this may not be a problem for many people on an ethical level, need meeting by people outside of the marriage always has a risk of developing feelings for the person who is meeting your needs so well. Allthough you and your wife have talked about this and have an agreement, this will not protect your hearts 100% of the time, becaus of how the human mind works (see the love bank concept).

Why play russion roulette with your marriage? If you want a long term relationship without heartbreak and drama, you may want to overthink this seemingly tolerant and enlightened concept. Otherwise, you will leave the survival of your marriage to chance. You have found this amazing woman to share your life with. Now make it a fantastic marriage and burn your bridges/forsake all others to maximize your chances of durable happiness.