First, all my respect, thanks, and gratitude to Dr. Harley and this group in general. If I was half as good at following the simple principles when things were good, as I am when they're not, I wouldn't be posting here today.

Together 6 years, married 3, each others first marriage, with 5yr old twins. I love her, she loves me, but my pattern of emotional neglect and our pattern of non-communication have wrecked things for good. She says she wants to go for good this time, our marriage is a "terminal dog with cancer that we've tried everything for, just needs shot humanely".

I'd apprecaite advice on anyone who has been in a similar situation, how to figure out this cyclical relationship pattern stuff, and if there is any recovery here - or how to move forward single again if thats really gods will.

Things came to a head 12/20/14. We are very busy individuals but the last few months have been neglecting the little time we have for each other. We've both rejected each others attempts to communicate by bringing up the latest transgressions. Her mom has been living with us for a few months as she's relocating to our state (this is causing plenty of issues as you can imagine), she's a serial divorcee, and W has surrounded herself with marriage-negative friends. Anyway, we talked, she says she loves me and doesn't want to hurt me, but that our marriage is dead and since every time we've worked things back on track it only lasts for a couple months then I mistreat her constantly again.

The cycle we've experienced is we work hard on our marriage for a few months and things are good, then we get busy with work or school or projects and work on our own stuff.
Then I'm not meeting her needs so my cute ineptness or forgetfulness are suddenly malicious acts, and my playful verbal jokes are all attacks and criticisms. We'll still be doing shared activities and parenting and occasionally have a good time together, but everything I do is overshadowed by something and resentment starts to grow. She will remember very few nice things in hindsight and only 'a million paper cuts'.
Then our communication starts to be stonewalled, I'd rather stay home than do a family event, and we're painful to be around each other.
Then something happens, some stupid comment or rude action, and a week or so later she presents her realization that we are not meant to be, that our marriage is unsavable, she will separate or divorce.
Then a few weeks of silence.
Then we see each other while swapping kids, start talking, acting decent and not fighting.
Over a week to a few months, we eventually dig into the latest reason of the breakup, make a plan to resolve the issues, commit to coming back together stronger than ever.
Cycle up, the whole cycling taking a good 1-1.5 years.
The issues coming to head as physical fights the first time, then verbal fights/abuse, then physical/emotional abandonment when she was sick, then emotional abandonment and alcoholism, now emotional/physical abandonment.

When we were talking and she saying its over, we dug into finding her submissiveness/tolerating the beginning irritating stuff (and softly rebuking it and telling me to stop, in what I perceived as a playful manner), is the same behavior she learned at childhood from dealing with her abusive dad, and seeing in their marriage. My overbearing/withdrawing stuff (stepping on her overly soft nature, absorbing in work/projects, avoiding conflict by stonewalling/leaving) are exactly what I saw my dad do. So this is some deep set stuff that neither of us are even really conscious of at the time, or know how to resolve if we do.

So we have our small circle, which ties into the bigger cycle of our parents.

I told her I don't want the cycle to repeat either because it hurts us both so much each time, the hopelessness of that the reason for a permenant divide. I have told her I believe in our marriage however and will do whatever I can to preserve/maintain our family. We agreed we both love each other so dearly, and that we really weren't doing much to consiously hurt each other, but it sure happened. I proposed a longer term counseling (1yr, as her concern is we'll drop out after a few months), she rejected.

I love my wife and family and do not want to lose this, but cannot go through causing her pain over and over.

Yeah I told the story in the hardest light for the sake of not being a sugar coater. I should say we are really excellent together in parenting tasks and the kids see us interacting in healthy ways - the problems only really pop up when we're alone.

I did some intense sleuthing and am certain there is no OM. There is no OW on my end. This is purely a marriage issue! guh.

6 days after the bomb drop and I had been 'on my best behavior', doing my best Plan A of showing her the great husby she fell in love with. It 'broke her heart to see again all the lost dreams, but she knows it can't last'. GUH! It was clear my being there was causing more harm than good and our relation was starting to negatively affect the kids. I went out without telling her where I was going, when I came back she insisted on knowing why I was late and She started a physical altercation! I (unintentionally) gouged her skin protecting property she was tearing up. She called the cops who told her she started it so they couldn't take her report, but told her it sounds like abuse and if she doesn't want it to happen again then don't be there because abusers don't change. So for everyones sake I'm staying close at a hotel at the moment. I've been by and keeping an eye out, there is no OM. She's been having no problem getting the kids to me for keeping that relationship healthy, but really NC with her right now.

Well it's been like 11 days and I'm actually feeling pretty good about life now. Crazy. I said my piece that I understood what she's said, I understand what my part in this is and for my part I'm sincerely sorry, and while I don't agree this is a solution I respect her choice.

I'm finding my peace in my own spiritual program and accepting life as it comes. Feels pretty good! Seeing me happy seems to have pissed her off and she's gone NC(as much as possible, we have kids to swap) which frankly is fine, it kinda sucks for both of us, but at this point what she does is none of my business really.

I let her know I thought this was something hasty we'll end up regretting, but I respect her choice and will do whatever I can in love to not make it an advisarial process (I don't care to drag out an expensive court battle, and we can pretty well agree on 50/50 property as well as joint kids). It just doesn't seem smart to add the bitterness and resentment (and cost! god the lawyers are expensive, and we have literally zero money) by using the process, when we agree on an even split. I do regret lowering my 'emotional shields' long enough to tell her it's not that I wouldn't fight FOR her, it's that I won't fight HER.

I've taken an even greater let-go-and-let-god attitude towards my life over the past week, it feels great, I'm finding myself much less selfish and much more loving towards the world in general. woohoo!

To top it off, I got to put in an app today for my new home. It's awesome, and a nice place I'll be excited to call home with my kids (part time). I'm working on not stressing about having to rent a moving truck next week and deal with whatever issues she brings when I get some stuff, but plan on approaching it sensibly kindly equitably and with love, so I kinda know it's going to work out how it should (and will document it all for the judge for later!)

Don't get me wrong, I still love her madly and would jump at the opportunity to reunite each other and the family - not how things are now but how they have been f'n great in the past - I just don't see anything I can do or say to bring that about - so I'll not worry about it and concentrate on being the best and happiest me (man/dad/christian) I can be, regardless of how this goes.

Life is good

And you know what..I'm feeling pretty done being down about this divorce, beating myself up over my own failures and shortcomings, and speaking negatively about my life.

You know what..I'm awesome! I'm loyal, spiritual, blessed, grateful, religious, loving, caring, determined, focused, strong, manly, resourseful, happy, warmhearted, a great provider, a great father, I'm adventurous, intelligent, inquisitive, intimate, attractive, sexy, a great lover, well educated, friendly, healthy, earth-connected, skilled, hard working, a great leader, giving, I'm free, I'm forgiven, I'm loved. I am a great husband.
I've experienced great successes and horrible failures, I've learned wonderful and difficult lessons, these mold me but do not define me.
Life has its ups and its downs and this is normal. I vowed to share these with one person for better or worse forever, and I'm not the one breaking that, and there's nothing I can do to make my wonderful, hurt, and confused wife not.
I'm accepting with love and respect. I'm choosing to forgive. I'm willing to remain still cautious but approachable, and I'm inclined to stand alone in faith, with hope for restoration after the papers are signed, satisfied and whole, as a matter of spiritual and moral principle, both for and with a clean conscience. That is my choice, likely a harder of paths, but one I trust I can lead in happiness and peace and without regret.

I'm awesome, and so are you!
Good night

Wife's given up, doesn't want to 'try' anymore/ever again. Every time we've 'tried' and reconciled, things 'don't stay good'. She 'deserves to be happy' and doesn't believe god wants her to stay in unhappy marriage, it was a mistake, too young, etc. There's no OM or OW, just lots of love busters and no quality time together. I don't want to give up but can't force her to stay. I'm in the process of moving to stop being the greatest source of hurt in her life, and don't want to end things (separate topic), but so there we are.

What do we tell the 5yr old kids!? what has worked well for others? She's asked me to tell them it's grownup issues and stonewall them, but I'm inclined to tell them an age-appropriate version of the truth: mommy doesn't want us to be a family together anymore, she doesn't want to be married anymore, and asked daddy to move away. It's really hard and hurts us all but daddy loves mommy enough to tell her OK.

Anyone see any problems with this simple and honest approach, or advise any better options? Advice greatly appreciated

What snooping have you done to rule out an affair?

Whenever a wayward wife comes on this forum, and has religious beliefs, she is bound to bring God into it, usually phrased the way your wife has. It's also typical to rewrite history.

A genuinely unhappy wife doesn't. She will talk about how happy she used to be and will have a specific set of things she wants changed. If she has specific complaints then by all means deal with them!

It should go without saying that you should not be love busting. You can still court your wife from afar if she moves out but don't dream of doing so yourself. It is nothing less than abandonment and will be used against you in any divorce. A better idea is to use this programme.

A spouse in a dire hurry for separation is very often unfaithful. Especially if they have small children.

A wife who isn't cheating should be interested in one last try.
I think you need to ascertain the truth yourself before telling the kids. You most certainly should not move out. Typically men who moved out have been driven out to make room for an affair.

If there isn't one she should be OK with your presence even if she isn't in love.

Abandonment isn't going to impress her. She plans to forget you the moment you are gone. Women are actually more likely to divorce for neglect than abuse.

Why not stay and fight for your family?

DenDad,

Here is my read on your situation, I could very well be wrong.

Your W has never fully been committed to you, and I suspect it is because she has kept in touch with a man from her past. Perhaps this was a man she wanted, but who dumped her, it may have happened before you even dated her.

Has your W ever said to you "I love you but I'm not in love with you" ???

Is there anyone your wife communicates with everyday?

God Bless
Gamma

Aah. Sorry. Your first post read like an actively interested husband so I thought affair since a wife won't leave one of those.

It all makes sense now. When your wife makes a complaint it is dismissed. Or you only address things for a few weeks before you revert.

If that's the case then you should leave and stop hurting her. Neglect is rough.



Disrespectfully diagnosing her using her childhood, dismissing her complaints - pretty much doing whatever you can to avoid being a husband.

It's not cute or playful to be thoughtless and insensitive. Not malicious no, just ... Not good enough. not awesome at all.

Now you are thoughtless enough to describe your wife as none of your business. Of course she is annoyed at your choice to abandon them. You've done it in spirit, now you're doing it in body.

She was probably hoping this could be a wake up call for you.

Shame.

I wonder why you have made this post here, dd. You do not appear to be asking for help. You say that life is good, so you appear to to be happy with your separation and impending divorce. Is your post intended to be a recommendation to other people to separate if they are in an unhappy marriage? Do you realise that this is a help forum whose purpose is to advise people who want to use the Marriage Builders programme?

Just out of interest: what kind of "physical fights" have you had? Who hits whom, and how hard? Who abandoned whom when your wife was sick? What kind of illness did she have; was it physical or mental? How did that "abandonment" work in practice? Did somebody move out? What happened to your kids during that time?

Who is the alcoholic? Who did the abandoning in that situation? Is the alcoholic spouse in a treatment programme?

Who has "physically abandoned" whom currently? Are you referring to your moving having recently moved out?

I'm sorry, dd but you are absolutely NOT awesome. it sounds to me as if your spiritual search has led you to adopt the language of the myriad self-help books that line the shelves of high-street bookshops: You're awesome and you should tell yourself that twice a day!; You must love yourself first if you want to be loved; If other people don't love you as you are that's their fault; You are perfect just as you are; The Rules of self-love; The narcissist's guide to how to love yourself better and other best-selling trash.

How does being awesome and a good husband square with these examples of appallingly abusive behaviours?

There are your irritating habits, such as repeatedly not doing things you have agreed to do; this is not "cute" at all. Repeatedly doing something she has asked you to stop is the same as giving the finger to your wife. It is the sort of behaviour that makes women fall out of love with men. Your teasing and criticising her under the guise of joking, and not stopping for good when she tells you she doesn't like it. Stupid and rude comments. Physical fights. Verbal abuse. Abandonment. Abandoning her and then refusing to say where you've been when you get back.

And now here you are, awesome you, loving your life. You are so awesome that you do not care about her misery; her misery is her fault for asking you to leave. She has brought her unhappiness on herself by asking you to leave, after years of this kind of behaviour, and after yet another physical fight in which you gouged her skin. Awesome you, looking forward to life in your new "pad"!

Yuk, dd. On the basis of your posts you sound absolutely repulsive. It's a good job you are enjoying life on your own.

Here

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_leave.html

You don't have to reject your wife's complaints to be admired and thought awesome by her. You might try getting admiration for how you respond to her complaints.

Remarry and you'll have the same problem as everyone, particularly wives, will have complaints they expect help with. Complaints about you. And no, your wife isn't going to miss you when you're gone. Women are actually wired far better for solitude than men. They greatly prefer it to neglect, which doesn't really trouble the married man.

Letting her know where you're going and punctuality are fairly basic courtesies. She's not going to miss that.

Gamma: Stop projecting yourself into unrelated situations. This is a clear case of a wife pushed into withdrawal by an abusive and neglectful husband. There is no reason to suspect old flames - that is your personal obsession and of little relevance here. This guy needs to concentrate on himself and not start looking for reasons to blame his wife. Her withdrawal is completely understandable.

Yeah, thanks for the reply! Sorry if you misread me here or I wasn't clear?

I'm actively interested and want a great marriage with her, but she's gone NC and says she wants out so I don't know what to do aside from give love and respect.

Complaints have been heard and adjustment made by both over the course of the relationship. Sure I've been dismissive at times and that is something I try to remain concious of and void.

Diagnosing, that was her who brought that up, explained that point of view. I see validity in it, enough so to bring it here and seek advice.

Yeah, I'm not an insensitive or thoughtless person so it sucks when that is my withdrawl style. Not awesome!

None of my business - I must lol. She asked me to leave, I said no I want this and I stepped up with a solid Plan A. She asked me again to leave, using violence, so I did. I don't want out but I respect giving her space. She wants to go NC, leave/end the marriage, and not see me - please tell me what else I could do?! She's probably hoping this could be a wake up call, and tells me she hopes it makes me the great person I have inside me, but for whomever my next partner is.

Shame.

That doesn't mean squat unless you've actually eliminated the complaint.

You might be conscious of your independent behaviours, you might wish to avoid them - but the bottom line is you are doing it. Pretty thoughtlessly.

Your head might well be full of 'love and respect' but that simply doesn't matter. What matters is you wander off without a word, show up late and wonder why she is upset.

I don't excuse her angry outburst in any way but it's pretty clear that your thoughtlessness is invisible to you and must be highly annoying to watch you act perplexed when you ignore her complaints then wonder why she is upset.

You seem to think if you've worked on one or two complaints 'over the years' then you're done. You should be able to skillfully respond to hourly complaints.

Your intentions won't impress anyone. What counts is what you do.



Plan A her in the separation whenever she gives you the chance. You could get coaching here from husbands who have successfully won back withdrawn wives. You could even get an accountability coach and purchase the program. I've heard you can do it separated, if she's willing.

But most importantly of all don't act like a man who did a 'solid Plan A'; you've been love busting the life out of her throughout. Most certainly don't tell a word of those excuses you mentioned to the kids.

Thanks Sugarcane. Good question, I'm here with a desire to improve my relationship with my STBXW, gain insight and advice for how to improve myself and shore up some of my character faults, and with the most sincere dream of a whole family, fulfilling long term happy marriage with STBXW.

Do not confuse the peace and happiness I've found through spiritual endeavor as an endorsement for divorce on the part of others, or a lack of desire on mine. I'm desperate for whatever steps I can take, including this wonderful program of Marriage Builders, to improve/correct/restore things.

All good questions. She was brought up in a physically abusive house and brought some of those patterns into our home early in the relationship. We both used to argue with pushing/shoving, nothing that left marks but very not acceptable. I'm so glad that's far behind us. When she was sick with cancer I abandoned by not spending every minute by her side, I regret that. I was scared and depressed and spent more time than I should have taking care of myself solo (4-12hr solo leisure activity a week), that was the abandonment. I've not ever physically left her before, she's always pent up / bottled up, not talked about things, then ghosted while I'm at work, moving everything including the kids to her moms house or an apartment once, and cutting me off. I seek her and the kids out because I want a healthy relationship with all.

I'm an alcoholic, almost 2 years sober, and active weekly (and daily lately!). Withdrawl back when I was drinking looked like watching more TV than talking with her.

Thanks for the probing questions that are helping me flesh out how to do the best for the stbxw, the kids, myself, and the marriage - whatever that means now.

I can see why you'd say that. I've colored myself in the worst light here pretty much only highlighting my faults, in an effort to address them. I haven't barely spoken of the wonderful aspects of myself or our marriage. Of course you'd feel that way about me.

Of course you'd think that about me as I've intentionally only highlighted the bad aspects as an effort to address them. There are so many of those bad behaviors I had changed for good, and we learned and grew closer as they were addressed and consistently corrected.
Yeah, awesome her for starting another physical fight, after we'd left that behind years ago.
Of course I'm going to love my life, it's not the one I prefer being separate from her, but I cannot control her thoughts feelings or actions, what I can control is myself and being a happy individual.
Of course I don't want to lose or leave her, but it's a circumstance I helped create, I'm cut off now, and I don't see anything to do to correct things aside from being the best person I can be today, developing good/better habits, treating her with peace and love, being a great father. I'm so totally open to further suggestions here, and thank you for your continued input.

My sincere thanks for that link Indiegirl, that makes great sense and I'm ordering that home study now. I'm generally sensitive to complaints and show that by adjusting accordingly. Thanks for understanding I've written myself in the worst light here to highlight pretty much only the negative issues I want to work on. Thanks for your input on remarriage. Yes, not informing re:whereabouts is something that was exclusive to the last few weeks, it's not my habit at all, I think I was 'acting out' to get any response as nothing else was working. It was wrong, but there we go. Thank you.

Indiegirl, thanks again for advice I plan to take to heart!
The going out to hang with friends without providing communication was exclusive to the last two weeks, and something I do regret. We were both not talking and rejecting each others attempts to, and I 'acted out', I was wrong.

I'm not going to act like I was perfect, or tried perfectly. I'll do my best today to do that, and pray tomorrow that I do that day too. Thanks for encouraging words, with her heart set on divorce and NC it will be tough I'm sure, but I do plan to Plan A daily with my words and actions, unseen or not.

Thank you

Ask her before you order it!

Leave the offer on the table if she doesn't go for it.

You can always get solo coaching here.

Thanks all, you rock so much.

I'll refrain from describing my intrusion into her privacy, and leave it at there is zero doubt there is no OM or OW, this is solely on us, and I'm understanding the biggest chunk of my part is the neglectfulness.

We've had 3 or 4 'last trys', each time specific behaviors are changed on both sides, but there are a few that come back each time and they are a deal-breaker for her (and me too): independent activites taking our 'our time', resentfulness, then being less caring for each other, then less communication, then split.

She's given up on last trys and I don't blame her, I don't agree, but I don't know what to do aside from respect her and Plan A her though it.

Yes she asked me to leave and I told her I was staying, I DID solid plan A for the 4 days until she insisted I leave because 'seeing me and seeing me acting like the great husband I am again was breaking her heart, she can't stand that, wants to move on and this be over, because it wouldn't last'.

Are you saying if I want the marriage to last, I must move in against her will, inflict that pain on her of seeing me and seeing my PlanA? I don't want to lose her and I don't want to hurt her, I don't know what to do / don't see any good way through this.

Gamma, no there is no OM.

Indiegirl you've hit the nail on the head, she plans to and wants to forget me, she's surrounded herself with a divorcee circle, and is working on removing me from her heart and life. We're really great together sometimes, really good together most of the time, and really bad together maybe 5-10% of the time. The bad times are when we've both given up.

I want to stay and fight for the family, but she clearly does not want me there, I don't know what to do so for now I'm giving her what she's asking for, which is space. I'm seeing the kids every other day and talking to them daily, but she wants NC so she can move on from me.

Already ordered, if just for myself that's fine. I'll offer her when it arrives. We're familiar with the program and read the book together, a long time ago, I wish more of it had stuck or that we had kept working on it when things were great.

Thank you, I am here and am so grateful for both the encouragement and the condemnation I'm receiving