I never could have imagined after all of the time I spent on these forums preparing for my marriage that I would be where I am ten years later. I never thought I was capable of such anger toward my husband. I am overwhelmed with negative emotions most of the time and then have moments where I feel completely dead inside, exhausted, almost hoping for him to reciprocate my anger so I can just give up.
And then to see him trying so hard, yet still not able to grasp what I feel is really going on makes me feel so hopeless. I'm empty. I see him trying desperately to fill my love bank, but the bottom of the bank is unplugged and his efforts mostly fall silently on the carpet below. I feel badly for him when I'm not angry.
I think my biggest failing in this marriage was waiting so long to put my foot down and refuse to be objectified any longer. I was always so worried about him cheating on me again or simply resenting me that I neglected my own building resentment. I feel invisible to him and over time I became the kind of person I most pity and hate. For ten years I have taken care of everyone but myself until I reached the final thread of my being...until I felt suicidal. And at that darkest moment of weakness, my husband allowed his mother into my home and watched as she abused me and did nothing to stop her (this was a recurring event that he was fully aware of and allowed to happen). He fled to his safety net at work (during the summer when his schedule was quite flexible) and left me to her abuse as she again told me what a horrible mother I was in front of our three children (ages 9, 6, 2). And then when I stood up for myself, his fury finally surfaced and he chose me to unload it upon.
Many things have happened to destroy my love for him, but that was the final piercing and agonizing strike and I fear I cannot forgive him that. I have followed him to the middle of nowhere for his job where I have no family to help and have reached the point where I'm no longer comfortable asking friends and when I most needed him, he buried me. But, that last thread...my friends, that last thread was made of steel.
This isn't just about reconnecting. I don't WANT to spend time with him, yet. I don't feel safe, yet. Yes, I see how badly he wants to fix things, but I also see how oblivious he is to the things within himself that he needs to look at. He is scared to dig through his own dirty laundry. He is in denial. I've tried to explain that he has some really painful stuff that he needs to unsurface, but have told him I will NOT list those out for him. It is not my place to do so at this point.
I've had to spell everything out to him throughout our 15 year relationship and I'm done doing that. He needs to figure some things out on his own. It was my idea for him to come here for feedback. It was my idea that he see a therapist and his response was to offer to go to my therapist to find ways to help me. HE needs help. He needs to bare it all. In the posts I've already seen from him, nowhere I have seen him even hint at his own weaknesses and vulnerabilities and I think it because he is too scared to acknowledge them. I cannot return to this relationship until I can at least see real signs that he understands what I am saying and we won't just sink back into our old relationship. I do not trust that he is capable of continuing in his current efforts...he will at some point give up or the resentment will build. In a different thread, he listed the things he has recently done for me and all of those are examples that I painfully listed out for him in a last gasp to explain that he needs to come up with things on his own for them to have loving meaning to me. Otherwise, he is just being obedient. This man is a theoretical physicist, friends. He is a proven genius. But, he is a machine...a human calculator. Either he is not capable of putting his brains into real life terms or he has been unwilling to for 15 years. I feel neglected, invisible, and abandoned, and I'm sick of him seeing me as this broken object responsible for his anger and frustrations, a toy that needs to be fixed.

In the interest of disclosure and just laying it all out there, I will share the second thing that happened this year that might as well have been a knife in my stomach (sorry this is such a long rant). I had a prophylactic mastectomy on January 7th followed by three more non-cosmetic surgeries this year. I don't even remember the first week after the mastectomy because I had to be so heavily drugged. I was in constant pain and on constant medications that made me feel nauseous. I couldn't do anything for myself. My best friend flew cross country to come help so Jeremy could return to work. I was in such bad shape, she had to strip down and get in the shower with me because I could not move my arms. And still I felt obligated to take care of him sexually. I was doing everything I could to force myself to have sex at least 1-2x a week before the mastectomy (I had a hysterectomy in 2012, which did nothing to help my sex drive despite being on hormone replacement therapy). Here we were nearing 3 weeks post mastectomy. I couldn't even get myself to sitting position without help (and holy hell did that hurt), but I knew I had to take care of him or he would resent having to wait hand and foot on me (yes, this is how bad things had gotten). We had already reached the point in our relationship where he was no longer going to initiate because he couldn't take rejection and I was scared to tell him when I was sick because I knew all he heard was, "Not tonight dear." We're talking migraines, folks. I felt guilty for having vomit-inducing migraines once a month. So, at 3 weeks post mastectomy, while still on hydrocodone along with anti-nausea meds and STILL in constant pain, I initiated. It wasn't a test...at least not consciously. I felt bad. It had probably only been a few moments when I knew I couldn't follow through. I thought I was going to vomit from the pain. He could see my pain and asked if it hurt too much. I said yes and his response was, "Okay, I'll hurry up."
Sex has never been about me. He cheated on me twice in the first year of our relationship and I probably should have listened to the people who told me to run the other way quickly and never look back. I have felt for years that I could be anyone--he just needed sex with SOMEONE. I have struggled to come across as engaged and interesting and that just gradually disappeared as I felt more and more dead inside. So, yeah, we're dealing with a sexual aversion and I don't know how to forgive him. I also don't know how to forgive myself for allowing that to happen to me. That is not who I am. Yes, I knew the MB laws inside and out. I knew I shouldn't be having sex if I didn't want to, but I also knew that was the most important thing to him and it wasn't just an emotional need. He became cold and grumpy to me and the kids when he didn't get enough. He punished me with his behaviors and his words. And then in my darkest hour, he told me he had been miserable for years because of my inability to meet his needs. I've been to countless doctors, visited sex stores, watched porn, read erotica, bought different goos and lotions, trying desperately to find a fix for my broken little self. Gynecologists, therapists, endocrinologists, menopause therapists, you name it (I asked pretty much EVERY doctor I ever saw if they could help me). I dealt with the insanity of changing birth control pills and antidepressants over and over. I'd been repeatedly convinced that I'm the problem; I'm broken and need to be fixed...for him. Two months ago when I was finally put on an effective anti-depressant, I put my foot down and said no more. I will not fake it anymore. I will not sacrifice my body or my mind and allow him to continue to see me as the broken one. And during that time, he had several epiphanies that have helped him to see his role in my lack of sex drive. HUGE epiphanies, but he still doesn't get it. All of this time, I have been protecting HIS insecurities. Yes, I've given him instructions. I've gently told him he's not a good kisser and to stop suffocating me. I've begged for a delicate touch, a bit of romance, and so on. I've given specific instructions as I've done for everything in our relationship. I can't do it anymore. He complains that he can't read my mind, but after 15 years together, I expect some growth in that department. I expect him to notice when I'm in pain, sad, angry, and just dead inside. I feel like I've been married to a college kid for 10 years. A guy who just wants to get laid and is willing to be a little extra nice to get me in the sack. So, he does things to be helpful around the house and every little thing he does, I know he just wants sex. I still feel disgusting when he looks at me. I'm dealing with the loss of my breasts and trying to find beauty in what I did to save my life, and he still ogles me. He still NEEDS me when I just want to figure out a way to balance taking care of myself while also fulfilling my very busy role of mother and business owner (a business that has been the only thing keeping me going...it is my passion).
He acknowledges that big changes are needed and that he needs to stop pressuring me. He helped me with my business recently and so I hugged him and thanked him. I don't think he even realizes that he ran his hands down my waist and butt and back up during that hug. I FINALLY put myself out there and tried to show him I appreciated what he was doing and I just felt like a lump of raw meat. Just more proof that he doesn't get it and that he is not in control of his own actions.

I'm so sorry this got to be such a long and ugly rant. I in no way think I'm perfect...never have. I'm always looking for ways to improve myself in all of my relationships. Right now, I'm trying so hard not to be just plain mean and cold. And somehow a few smiles and laughs translates into "good friends" to him. Again, I feel so invisible and I'm exhausted by it all. I just want to stop.

Your old friend,
Smiles

Welcome back to MB.

Does your H post here? If so what's his posting name?

Hi Smiles, thank you for signing up and giving your perspective. I have highlighted and underlined above what I see as the main obstacle in your recovery. His going to a therapist is a distraction at a time when he needs to be focused on your marriage. By your own admission you have withheld much needed complaints to him that could have been valuable guideposts. You also have sacrificed so much that you are seething with resentment. I am relieved you can see how damaging sacrifice and a lack of radical honesty is to your marriage.

BUT, in order to move forward and transform your marriage, you MUST tell him what he is doing wrong. Otherwise, he will be groping around in the dark and will never find the right door. You HAVE to spell it out and he has to get it right. He cannot get that valuable perspective from ANY therapist on the face of the earth because the ONE person he needs to make happy is YOU. So only you hold the key to what makes you happy and what makes you unhappy.

A complaint is an opportunity for improvement. He needs those complaints in order to know how to change. If you don't tell him, he will not know.

NOW, we can help you with this, but my suggestion would be that you all sign up for the online course and get professional help from Dr Harley and his team of coaches. You are both going to need special guidance to get through this. Your husband has been here for YEARS and when DIY does not work, it might be time to escalate the problem and get qualified professional help.

Yes, here is the most recent thread that he started:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2836251&page=1

Responders requested that I start my own thread.

Does he have angry outbursts?

I completely understand what you are saying.

"Your husband has been here for YEARS and when DIY does not work, it might be time to escalate the problem and get qualified professional help."

No, my husband has not been here for years and he has not been doing the DIY dance for more than 2 months. I found MB in back around 2000. I spent hours reading the literature. I printed up all of the surveys and convinced him to do them with me while also bringing him on board here. I set boundaries and did everything possible to set us up for success. For 10 years, I have been struggling with communicating to a man who only hears the parts he is emotionally capable of hearing. I have been holding this marriage together. I have also been the one taking parenting classes and constantly trying to better myself while chewing on his (and his family's) criticisms of me. It is only in the past two months when I have disengaged and forced him to open his eyes that he has taken me seriously and taken steps to improve himself and only now that I have asked him to do some "mind reading". I am an open book with everyone I've ever met (yes, this has made me very vulnerable to people who do not have my best interests at heart). I have no secrets and certainly never kept any from my husband. The fact that anything he has discovered in the past 2 months comes as a surprise to him is painful evidence of how much of what I've told him has been filtered out or straight up ignored.

His angry outbursts were a new thing this year and clearly a direct result of his frustration. I know he feels lost and like he can't do anything right. It is only in this past month that I believe he has begun to even be able to receive positive feedback or appreciation from me in a form other than sex.

Will you fill this out? Marital Problem Analysis

You validated my point that he needs to be held accountable and that is what the online course achieves. We might be able to help him here, but you will get more consistent help from Dr. Harley.

You don't have time for guesswork or "therapy" from the sounds of it. The most straightforward way to get you on the right path is to be very open and honest about your complaints and have someone hold him accountable long enough to change his habits.

"By your own admission you have withheld much needed complaints to him that could have been valuable guideposts."

No, I have not withheld complaints, but I do see how what I wrote lead you to that conclusion. I have tried to put them gently so as not to damage his already fragile ego and I've tried wording them in many different ways. I cannot think of anything that I have actually withheld. It is that fragile ego that he must address because I do not feel safe at this point reiterating his failings, particularly in bed. He has childlike reactions to my attempts to detail what I'm missing...mostly wounded animal responses. I can tell that I'm just hurting his feelings and even now when I feel no love for him, I don't want to do that.

5x experiences very strong and negative physiological responses to not getting enough sex...this has been incredibly punishing to me over the years, especially while dealing with my own emotional and physical disabilities, not to mention three kids who constantly need me and a son with Aspergers who has interrupted me 6 times since I started this last post! Gah! Anyhow, between that and his being able to see right past my very obvious pain, still seeing me as a means to his release while knowing how miserable I am, I believe he has deep seated issues that require professional help. Perhaps had he revealed these anger issues to his therapist, they'd still be talking.

And fwiw, my therapy sessions have been incredibly productive.

Have you read this?
What to do with an Angry Husband

For each of the following, indicate how serious a problem it is in your marriage. Use these
numbers to indicate your answer.
1. Serious enough to threaten our marriage unless resolved
2. Serious, but not enough to threaten our marriage if left unresolved
3. Sometimes disappointing, but not a serious problem
4. Not a problem at all.
1___ Affection
3___ Family Commitment
1___ Sexual Fulfillment
3____ Admiration
1____ Intimate Conversation
1____ Selfish Demands
3___ Recreational Companionship
2____ Disrespectful Judgments
4___ Honesty and Openness
3____ Angry Outbursts
4____ Physical Attractiveness
4____ Dishonesty
4____ Financial Support
3____ Annoying Habits
3___ Domestic Support
4___ Independent Behavior
Are you in the process of divorcing? ___No
If you have not filed for divorce, have you been considering it? __Only recently and not seriously

During this weekend, I introduced three goals of marriage: (1) create a lifestyle that is fulfilling for
both of you, (2) avoid being each other�s source of unhappiness, and (3) becoming each other�s
greatest source of happiness. Your failure to achieve which of these three goals is having the
greatest negative impact on your marriage? 3
If you could learn to achieve that goal, would you be able to achieve the other two without much
difficulty? Yes

Why do you not feel safe? What does he do in response to your complaints? It is important that you are free to make complaints to him. We can help him become more receptive to them. But you cannot withhold complaints.


Please stop psychoanalyzing him. He doesn't need a therapist. He needs to learn to start behaving. And we can help him what that.

But you first have to stop performing on demand and stop withholding complaints. Having sex with him when you don't want to has caused enormous resentment. It just has to stop. You say you don't withhold complaints and then say you don't feel safe, so I am very confused.

Fortunately, the angry outbursts have not been effective for him. I shut that [censored] down pretty quickly. He has never tried to hurt me. My angry outbursts have surely been more damaging, though also rare and ineffective from my perspective. He's handled my outbursts well, too.

In 10 years of marriage, I think we fought less than 5 times before this year. We have always been very open and honest and outside of his inadvertent demands for sex, I think we have always been very respectful. Only this year have I ever even said anything negative about him to others. I've never feared him speaking poorly of me to anyone else...I don't suspect he has said much of anything about me to others.

Have you seen this?
Resentment Type A and B

"Please stop psychoanalyzing him. He doesn't need a therapist. He needs to learn to start behaving. And we can help him what that."

If buying into that is a requirement for me being back on MB, I might need to opt out. I'm sick of people talking about men like obedient dogs who need to "behave". That is demeaning and disrespectful. I have a friend who told me that all men need is to be fed, have their head pat, and give them sexual release. It was cute at first and then I realized how pathetic that is.

"But you first have to stop performing on demand and stop withholding complaints. Having sex with him when you don't want to has caused enormous resentment. It just has to stop."
Done. I think the absence of sex has allowed both of us to see things more clearly.

"You say you don't withhold complaints and then say you don't feel safe, so I am very confused."
I'm saying for the past 15 years, I have been 100% open and honest, although sugar coating things that could be damaging to his ego. This past year, I have been more straightforward with those things, which has been met with anger and hurt.

When I say I don't feel safe, I'm not saying I fear he'll do anything to hurt me. I have never ever feared for my safety even during his angry outbursts. I just don't feel comfortable being honest with him anymore even though for the first time he is asking me to lay it on him. It is only in the past couple of months that I have withdrawn that I'm withholding anything and to that end, I am withholding everything. I've needed space to take care of myself without worrying about his needs for once. I've needed some breathing room without the ever present guilt. I hit rock bottom with suicidal ideations and had to pull myself back out of the gutter while still performing my roles of housewife and mother, undergoing surgery, and seeing a whole team of doctors to deal with my physical ailments and emotional health.
So, when I talk about withholding everything, I hope you can understand that I was driven to that in order to survive. Had my husband truly had my back like he promised and continuously assured me, that wouldn't have been the case.

BrainHurts, that is one I do not remember reading. Honestly, I think we both experience Type A resentment with regards to sex.

It is demeaning and disrespectful to psychoanalyze your husband like he is a mental patient. You are not a doctor and he is not a patient. No one is talking about anyone like an "obedient dog;" we are all about behavioral change here, whether it be men or women. In fact, the first place we start is with the first 5 chapters of Lovebusters. One does not need to go to a "therapist" to change behavior. They just need to understand what they are doing wrong and stop it.


Thanks for the explanation. We can help you state your complaints in a way that does not come across like an attack. It sounds like he needs very clear, concise feedback to GET IT, but it has to be framed in a very respectful way. We can help you with this.


Gotcha. This makes sense. What has happened is that you are in a full withdrawal.
Thanks for the explanation.

Smiles, if I were you, i would really consider signing up for the MB program. You and your husband could greatly benefit from it because I think your really needs someone to hold him accountable. If you can't do that, I would start by eliminating love busters and agreeing to never do anything without the other's enthusiastic agreement. That applies to sexual fulfillment *AND* any contact with his family. The idea is to stop the bloodletting and THEN start filling the love bank. Are you familiar with the policy of joint agreement?

If you don't want to go through the MB course, you can do this with the aide of the Lovebusters book and the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. That is where I would START. Take a look at the worksheets that come with the workbook here: here

You misunderstand. ***EDIT***

ML was not suggesting anything like training your husband and treating him like a dog, with simple treats and rewards. It was especially ironic that you objected to advice that you saw as treating him like a dog, since you yourself described him in these terms:

Regardless of your own terminology towards your husband, what ML meant was that he needs to KNOCK IT OFF; he needs to stop expressing "very strong and negative physiological responses to not getting enough sex". He needs to express his needs respectfully and he needs to accept your needs and perspectives, rather than getting "physiological".

MelodyLane, and all of us here, give advice that comes from Dr Harley, the founder of the Marriage Builders programme. He is a behavioural psychologist, and as such, he believes in practising behaviours that improve our lives and marriages. He is firmly against any psychologist or counsellor who encourages a person to explore their childhood in the hope of righting whatever wrongs took place there. This is because such activity is a distraction from solving the problems in the present day, and because the wrongs that were done to us in childhood can in fact never be resolved. We cannot go back and make our parent treat us kindly, or undo the physical or sexual abuse we suffered. What we need to do is leave the past in the past and focus on the day-to-day, learning new habits and behaviours that improve our present-day lives.

If a spouse has angry outbursts he need to learn techniques in order to stop those outbursts for good. If a spouse has annoying habits, such as poor personal hygiene, messiness, lateness or a computer game obsession, they need to practice NOT DOING THOSE THINGS now - today and every day. They are habits, and in a few weeks, with assiduous practice, we can learn new, pleasing, marriage-friendly habits.

That's what ML meant by "he needs to learn to start behaving. And we can help him with that." She implied nothing to do with treating him like a dog and giving him sex to shut him up.