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Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by black_raven
Telling a spouse what toppings you would like on a pizza is not micro managing IMO.


Side issue I know but I would be outraged if someone tried to tell me what to put on top of the pizza I was making. Fine to ask not to have something (say olives) on it but to tell me what to put on it?

If they were lucky they would get handed the project, if they were unlucky they would be wearing it :-)

I wouldn't be outraged if someone told me what they wanted though. If they didn't care what was on it with the exception of x and Y, that's fine too. You might get upset and see their request as a demand but others may not. Different communication styles. I want a person to tell me what they want vs what they don't want so it's clear and we can eat. Too much room for expecting to mind read if a person doesn't plainly say what they prefer on the pizza. That would be 100 x more frustrating for me.


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2 awesome kids
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Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
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Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by black_raven
Telling a spouse what toppings you would like on a pizza is not micro managing IMO.


Side issue I know but I would be outraged if someone tried to tell me what to put on top of the pizza I was making. Fine to ask not to have something (say olives) on it but to tell me what to put on it?

If they were lucky they would get handed the project, if they were unlucky they would be wearing it :-)

I wouldn't be outraged if someone told me what they wanted though. If they didn't care what was on it with the exception of x and Y, that's fine too. You might get upset and see their request as a demand but others may not. Different communication styles. I want a person to tell me what they want vs what they don't want so it's clear and we can eat. Too much room for expecting to mind read if a person doesn't plainly say what they prefer on the pizza. That would be 100 x more frustrating for me.


JustDayToDay nailed it. I was making my own pizza and you were thinking that it was coming ready-made from a shop.


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Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by black_raven
Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by black_raven
Telling a spouse what toppings you would like on a pizza is not micro managing IMO.


Side issue I know but I would be outraged if someone tried to tell me what to put on top of the pizza I was making. Fine to ask not to have something (say olives) on it but to tell me what to put on it?

If they were lucky they would get handed the project, if they were unlucky they would be wearing it :-)

I wouldn't be outraged if someone told me what they wanted though. If they didn't care what was on it with the exception of x and Y, that's fine too. You might get upset and see their request as a demand but others may not. Different communication styles. I want a person to tell me what they want vs what they don't want so it's clear and we can eat. Too much room for expecting to mind read if a person doesn't plainly say what they prefer on the pizza. That would be 100 x more frustrating for me.


JustDayToDay nailed it. I was making my own pizza and you were thinking that it was coming ready-made from a shop.

Not exactly. It wouldn't matter to me if I was making it or if it was delivered.


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exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
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Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by black_raven
JustDayToDay nailed it. I was making my own pizza and you were thinking that it was coming ready-made from a shop.

Not exactly. It wouldn't matter to me if I was making it or if it was delivered.


But MB says that it isn't what matters to me or what matters to you that counts, just what AP felt. He said he felt micro managed when she asked for pizza toppings.


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Would it not be a selfish demand to make your spouse eat pizza toppings he/she doesn't want. And/or independent behavior to order/make pizza without consulting your spouse about his/her preferences?

People engaging in IB typically feel controlled or micromanaged when they are asked to consider someone else...so feeling controlled or micromanaged does not mean that a request was wrong...

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Originally Posted by living_well
He said he felt micro managed when she asked for pizza toppings.

No, he didn't. LDD brought up the pizza toppings as an example about how she felt.

She wrote - "For example, I can ask for pizza, but I can't specify when I would like it or what kind of toppings." H's comment about feeling micro-managed was about the mail and the dog.


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2 awesome kids
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Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
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Can we back-burner the pizza discussion for now? Does anyone have any feedback on my questions?

Originally Posted by JustDaytoDay
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by JustDaytoDay
The really confusing part is that he will respond to other questions in the same email, but not ones about coaching.
We can only suggest that you ask Dr Harley again, more directly. Make this the only question in the email so that it does not get lost among other questions.
Yes, please ask Dr. Harley.
I received a response from Dr. Harley. He said, simply, "I encourage any couple who have exhausted their resources in finding a way to solve their marital problems to participate in the Marriage Builders Online Program." I've also noticed some chatter on my H's thread, asking if I would be willing to participate or at least give my H feedback.

I have three concerns.

First, I have absolutely no interest in doing another "program" that teaches the Harley principles. I'm saturated. Remark has copies of several Harley workbooks that I've filled out for him. My involvement in that regard shouldn't be necessary.

Second, I have no doubt that it has been very successful for a large number of couples. But like P90X, you actually have to DO what it instructs you to DO in order for it to be effective. That has always been my H's problem, and I don't see what "power" an accountability coach has to make him do it, any more than others/counselors have had in the past. I'm afraid for him/us, it will just be a waste of money.

Last, regarding my feedback. Here's what I'm imagining for that:

Yesterday, I told him that I don't believe that he loves me, that I feel like I live under his constant disdain. I pointed out that the people on the forum see the same thing, describing his words as laced with "withering contempt" and disrespect in every other sentence. I said that I believe there are behaviors inherent in the feeling of love for someone, such as wanting to do things to make them happy, sometimes (voluntarily) sacrificially, which he has never demonstrated. I referenced his statement that he felt like giving up what he wanted for what I wanted was like "putting his testicles in my purse." I said he seemed to have entered this marriage with no concept of the idea that maybe *I* wanted something out of it too, and that he had made it all about him since day one. He lies to me about minutia, throws me under the bus for other people, never addresses my complaints. Even his current efforts to save this marriage seem much more to do with not wanting to lose his standard of living than it has to do with me. If I were to die and leave him everything so he could just insert another woman into my role of cook/housekeeper/sex partner, he wouldn't skip a beat.

In his daily report to Dr. Harley this morning, he wrote, "Sheri said she believes my heart is wrong, does not love her, and she wants to end the marriage with a divorce. She said �If I loved her, I would not have deceived her re the toilet� and that is her foundation for judging my heart.... It sickens me to think about a toilet being the end of our marriage." "

I feel like once again he made me out to look like an "unreasonable cow" (thank you SugarCane.) Afterall, what sort of rational human being would judge a M or throw a M out because of one incident with a toilet? And yesterday, he posted on his thread that he had eliminated 3 entire categories of LB's, when I had just told him that I didn't perceive that he had eliminated any LB's. Am I supposed to offer feedback on these inaccuracies? Is this the sort of assessment I'm supposed to do? If so, I don't think I have the desire. If not, how can the coach possibly sort through the BS?

I don't want to commit to something that I'm not going to be able to follow through on. I'm hoping to get a better understanding of what to expect before I do.
I'm not looking for permission, just enough information to make an informed decision.


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Originally Posted by JustDaytoDay
Can we back-burner the pizza discussion for now? Does anyone have any feedback on my questions?
If your question boils down to "should I do the online course", the answer is a resounding "yes". Your "3 concerns' do not make any difference to my answer, if that is the question.


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Yes. You should.

1. It has a $ back guarantee.

2. They tailor it to each couple based on the marital analysis.

3. I have learned a lot just by reading every post in the private forum. If Remark would do that, I think it would be helpful.

4. The coaches are very respectful of your mental state. But they can help you make progress because they are not emotionally involved.

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Originally Posted by JustDaytoDay
I'm not looking for permission, just enough information to make an informed decision.
I'm not giving you permission. I am recommending the course to you, unreservedly. I would do so to anybody.

I must admit that I don't see a clear question in your last post, so I am taking it to be "should I do the course"? And I would always say yes. There is simply nothing like the MB programme - in terms of purpose, goals, action and measurable changes - and it seems to me that having a coach is the answer to all your problems with getting Remark to focus, listen and change.

You say "I don't want to commit to something that I'm not going to be able to follow through". Well, none of us knows if you are going to be able to follow it through, so we can't make any recommendations about that. I can only say that you are clearly interested in working on your marriage because you continue to post here, so work on it with a coach.


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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by JustDaytoDay
I'm not looking for permission, just enough information to make an informed decision.
I'm not giving you permission. I am recommending the course to you, unreservedly. I would do so to anybody.

I must admit that I don't see a clear question in your last post, so I am taking it to be "should I do the course"? And I would always say yes. There is simply nothing like the MB programme - in terms of purpose, goals, action and measurable changes - and it seems to me that having a coach is the answer to all your problems with getting Remark to focus, listen and change.

You say "I don't want to commit to something that I'm not going to be able to follow through". Well, none of us knows if you are going to be able to follow it through, so we can't make any recommendations about that. I can only say that you are clearly interested in working on your marriage because you continue to post here, so work on it with a coach.

Exactly.

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Originally Posted by JustDaytoDay
Am I supposed to offer feedback on these inaccuracies? Is this the sort of assessment I'm supposed to do? If not, how can the coach possibly sort through the BS?

I'm asking because I've already been doing this with Dr. Harley and with Remark and on the forum for about 6 weeks since we were on the radio program, and it doesn't appear to have much impact on him for the emotional toll it takes on me. I really don't want to commit to a month more of that, much less a year.

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Originally Posted by JustDaytoDay
[quote=JustDaytoDay]Am I supposed to offer feedback on these inaccuracies? Is this the sort of assessment I'm supposed to do?

I don't know. I have never done the online program.


BW - me
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2 awesome kids
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Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
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Originally Posted by JustDaytoDay
Originally Posted by JustDaytoDay
Am I supposed to offer feedback on these inaccuracies? Is this the sort of assessment I'm supposed to do? If not, how can the coach possibly sort through the BS?

I'm asking because I've already been doing this with Dr. Harley and with Remark and on the forum for about 6 weeks since we were on the radio program, and it doesn't appear to have much impact on him for the emotional toll it takes on me. I really don't want to commit to a month more of that, much less a year.
You were expressing these same reservations on the radio program. You didn't believe things would change then.

I can empathize with your situation. I have been living with an autistic person for over 30 years, and I doubt I'd be able to stand being married to anybody with characteristics like that. But in all fairness, I think you can acknowledge that your husband is trying to overcome things that are very fixed in his nature. It is going to take time and loads of effort from both of you. If your marriage is ever going to make it out of this bog, you will have to pick up the rope at some point and start pulling, too. Expecting big changes while remaining totally detached is just not realistic.

All of these are things that I think you already know. I encourage you to try.


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Originally Posted by JustDaytoDay
Originally Posted by JustDaytoDay
Am I supposed to offer feedback on these inaccuracies? Is this the sort of assessment I'm supposed to do? If not, how can the coach possibly sort through the BS?

I'm asking because I've already been doing this with Dr. Harley and with Remark and on the forum for about 6 weeks since we were on the radio program, and it doesn't appear to have much impact on him for the emotional toll it takes on me. I really don't want to commit to a month more of that, much less a year.


Yes. You will need to give updates on his behavior and give feedback to the coach and/or Dr. Harley. Like Mr. Eureka said, changing takes time. But it is possible.

You can't stay like this. Things will get worse because your ability to tolerate uncaring behavior diminishes and your health suffers. One thing you can learn to work on for yourself is the ability to calm yourself. You can't get to the state of intimacy and romantic love without going through the state of conflict. To tell you that it will be easy or not require your cooperation? I can't. It stinks. You can always go thru with the divorce instead.

But one cool thing about the program is that once it clicks for you both, you will always have the framework. It is a rare gift. I have 6 brothers and 5 brothers in law. And only 2 appear to have any significant understanding of respect/boundaries/extraordinary care. Others are throwing darts and living with risky marital behaviors.

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You sound like you are both interested in the program. You said you weren't planning to leave for a few years. Why not try the online program to see if it helps?

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Thanks for the responses. I read them earlier today and I've been contemplating them since.

To MrEureka, I CAN acknowledge that the things my H has to overcome are very fixed in his nature. I CANNOT acknowledge that he's trying to change them, though. Yes, he's jumping through a lot of hoops and putting on a good show, but for what purpose?

To illustrate, I'll reference something Remark told me, something he mentioned on the radio program as well. He said he's like a dog that you told to do a trick, and he runs through all of them trying to figure out, essentially, which trick will get him the bone, like our previous dog used to do. In her case, we trained her to do a number of tricks by using various treats. For the most part she was pretty good at them, but she seemed to have maxed out at about 6 simple tricks. If you attempted to train her anything new, she would keep randomly cycling through her core set until you finally just gave her the treat. The longer it took her to get the treat, the more frantic she got. However, she never could seem to focus on what we were trying to teach her, and her repertoire of tricks never expanded. He said that he feels like that, that he's just cycling through what he knows, trying to get what he wants, without understanding what people are trying to teach him. That's definitely how I see him as well, but what do I do with the fact that he sees himself that way? (BTW, I just presented this depiction of his point with him and he confirmed its accuracy.)

And Mark has a very unhealthy repertoire of behaviors that he uses to acquire his "treats." He uses: snake oil marketing, (empty) promises, claiming ignorance, apologizing, superficial actions (counseling, listening/reading/posting but never applying any of it), pleading, guilting, belittling, threatening, and lying. These have all worked for him in the past, but they are no longer getting him what he wants, at least not from me.

I have to ask, if a person was looking to improve himself, why would he lie to the people that were trying to help him? Why would he claim to understand POJA and be all in, take a break to go do something he knew I didn't agree with, and then come back to the forum to continue professing his commitment? Why would he claim to have eliminated AO, IB, and SD, when I had just two minutes prior told him he hadn't eliminated any and even provided recent examples as evidence? This doesn't strike me as someone looking for help in changing himself. I don't know what it is.

And I'll confirm that initially, I was trying to postpone a D until after our son was out of the house. But it has become glaringly obvious to me that this environment is no longer healthy for him. His childhood years are flying by and I'm wasting them. And it's not healthy for me either. Joyce described our efforts as "making a career" out of working on our marriage, and she's right! I want a new career!

So, I need him to leave. If he wants to do the online program, I'll agree to give it a shot after he's out of the house, with the understanding that I will remain detached until I see some changes. I don't expect to see "great" changes, but I have to see something.

I will say, if we manage to pull out of this, it will be a true testament to the effectiveness of the Harley program.

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Originally Posted by JustDaytoDay
I have to ask, if a person was looking to improve himself, why would he lie to the people that were trying to help him? Why would he claim to understand POJA and be all in, take a break to go do something he knew I didn't agree with, and then come back to the forum to continue professing his commitment?


The POJA is a superb test of whether you and your spouse are committed to MB because it requires trust and radical honesty from both of you. It does not need to be about anything critical, make it something fairly small to get started. If either of you have hidden agendas, the POJA will quickly break down because nobody can stick to an agreement that was never what they really wanted.

So let the folks on the on-line programme guide you through a carefully chosen issue and see how it works out. You are not trying to trap him here, you are looking for answers. You may be surprised at your own part of the dynamic.


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What I can offer you is a different perspective. Your husband reminds me of my autistic son. I'm not saying that he is autistic, but it is obvious that he thinks in ways that are very different. You describe him with a model that sounds very Pavlovian, i.e. classical conditioning, using rewards like one would go about training an animal. I suspect he is more complex than that. The problem is that he has no good interface with you. You don't understand him, and he doesn't understand you. So, since he can't figure it out, all he seems to be able to do is try to address issues symptomatically. He tries one thing, then another abandoning the first, each time asking the question "Is that enough". Not only is it maddening for you, but it will never achieve the goal of creating a good marriage.

The key is the love bank. If your marriage is ever to pull out of this nosedive, he has to find ways to make love bank deposits with you while avoiding these annoying habits that cause withdrawals. You are going to have to help him do this. Understanding how he works really isn't the key. His love bank is not the issue, your's is. I would try identifying the issues as those that are lovebusters for you and those that make love bank deposits for you. Make it crystal clear to him what you are thinking. Don't expect him to get it on his own, because he has already failed that test and is sure to continue failing in the future. I understand that you are in withdrawal and that makes this all very unnatural for you. Although it sounds very mechanical, the love bank really works in this very simple way. Building up your love bank balance is the critical need right now.


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JDD, are you willing to comeback and post to us?


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