If she was not enthousiastic, then don't do it.

I am interested in the way you phrased that question. You put it as if you believe that character is so fundamental to a person, like eye colour, that it cannot be changed. Is that what you believe?

Marriage Builders is founded on the idea that we can overcome our basic instincts - when they are harmful to marriage - and learn beneficial behaviours. Dr Harley does not spend a lot of time discussing whether our behaviours are in fact instinctive, and thus genetic, or whether they are habits which we have learned, but the point is that through practice, we can change those behaviours. I have heard him discussed the anger that a newborn baby displays in the delivery room. Nobody taught that baby how to be angry. Perhaps we are born with instincts such as anger. Perhaps it is a fundamental part of being human.

However, anger is harmful, and it is destructive to marriage, so no matter how inbuilt or genetic it may be, we need to learn and practice overcoming it. It can be done, and lots of people learn how to do it.

I'm only using anger as an example; i am not saying that it is your particular problem. I am using it to illustrate Dr Harley's argument that there is no behaviour, no matter how deeply embedded, that we cannot change. We may not be able to change feelings, or attitudes, but we can always change our behaviour.

If you do not accept that you can change your behaviour, then you might as well grant your wife her wish and move out, leaving her in peace. If you cannot change, or you believe you cannot, then you are a danger to her and will make her unhappy for the rest of your lives together.

You need to eliminate the justification that I detected in your question. HOW you change is by "doing" the new behaviour, from now on.

What did Dr Harley tell you to do, specifically, on a daily basis?

Don't do anything on this issue until you have mutually and enthusiastically agreed a solution.

Also, don't post here to complain about your wife.

I detect a complaint in the post about POJA. You are saying "look, everybody: I tried to do the right thing, and see how unreasonable she was". You are STILL trying to paint a picture where we can see that you are not an unreasonable bloke; not husband of the year, maybe, but someone a lot of women would have no problem living with. Your wife, on the other hand, throws up obstacles and makes objections that would drive any reasonable person up the wall. The problem is her, not you.

That is what you are trying to tell us in that complaint.

Today, I re-read the posts I made to you, where I translated what you said into what came across. You were shocked by my readings, but your wife said that I was spot on in describing how your words made her feel.

Well, you're still doing it. Drop it.

Lastly, for now:

If you want me to keep posting to you, you are going to have to change the situation where I post more to you about your marriage than you post yourself.

I saw you online just a while ago, but you seem to have logged out, and who knows when you'll be back. You need to reply to your posts as soon as they come in, if you want anybody to give a monkey's about giving you advice. Put your thread on your watch list, so that you get an email any time someone posts to it. When you get that email, run, don't stroll back here, to respond to the post.

That is a practical suggestion for how to show your wife you are serious about getting and responding to advice.

Mark,

you will only be able to change that when you realize that God will not judge if you were being right, but if you were being caring.

Yes, that's what POJA means. So, that's what we'll do. Nothing, for now.

Remark-

So good to hear from you! I had no idea that you still wanted help because you never told us that.

Congratulations! You are still married!

I have some help for you. But before I post my input, I will wait until you have acknowledged and responded to each person who took the time to post to you today. Are you willing to do that?

Sugarcane,

Yes, I've been online all day, checking for posts. Yes, I've been in the garage much of the day involved in a school project with my son, but have been doing F5 (refresh) on my PC every hour or so as I walk inside for something. Apparently F5, to refresh my screen, does not show new posts. So, I'll page backwards and forwards to detect new posts.

As to and complaining about my wife. Message heard and understood. I am serious about MY OWN change, not meaning to come across as complaining about her.

AM online now and for the rest of the evening. I am starting by doubling back to re-read all of your posts.
Are you the forumer who said I come across with 'withering contempt'? I still struggle with that apparently, for that is not what/how I feel, but is, apparently, how I come across.

My goal is to use the Harley program to win her back, not complain about her.

What kind of stuff do you want more about re: our marriage?

Thanks,
Remark

DidntQuit,

Yes, I'm online. Was working with son on his school project checking my PC every so often as I can in from the garage and did F5, which I thought refreshed my screen with new posts, and I didn't notice any. Apparently, you have to do more than that to see new posts.

No Congrats appropriate. She still wants me out of the house as soon as possible. And am still commit LB's.

Yes, I am willing , WANT. to hear and heed advice. Am catching up with everyone now. Please, don't give up on me.

Am online for balance of the day/evening.

Thank you, sincerely,
Remark.

Hi Sugarcane,
Thanks for posting. Again, my apologies for not noticing it thinking F5 would refresh the screen and show the new postings.

As for character comment. My wife and I often talk about how your actions, behavior reflect your heart and your character. Even my words, apparently, often reflect stuff in my heart that you and others detect that wife and I discuss as are buried in my true feelings and character.

I have a serious character flaw where I commit to POJA and then don;t follow through. For example, I agreed a long time ago to go to bed if I felt tired and likely to fall asleep if I were starting watching a movie with wife and son. That happens a lot as they watch a movie that has no interest to me. And, when I fall asleep, I snore, which compromises their enjoyment of the movie.

I committed to getting up and going to bed if I feel prone to falling asleep. Friday a week ago, we rented a movie I wanted to watch. (The point is, it wasn't something that wouldn't hold my interest and I thought I'd fall asleep.) But fall asleep I did. They yelled at me. I was enjoying the movie and stayed. I fell asleep again. They yelled at me again. I stayed and watched the rest of the movie.

I'm describing my character flaw, not defending it. I should have gotten up and gone to bed, even before they yelled at me for falling asleep the first time. I violated my POJA commitment. Again, not bragging, complaining about my own character.

That should help you understand why she'd say "You don't follow POJA anyway."
That's the kind of crappy behavior of mine that I want to change and eliminate from my "character".

Dr Harley had me daily send him an account of my giving my wife Undivided Attention for a few weeks. We started with that.

He understands my character flaw of not matching my actions with my words (commitments like POJA.) So, we've talked to that as well. He has encouraged me to 'get back on the horse' even when I fail.

I agree with you that doing the behavior, on a daily basis, is important and what I need to change, and for some time, before I can hope for my wife to see it. A one-time change of not falling asleep during one movie, does not character change define. (I hope you followed that.)

I can change behavior. And am committed to it. My wife hasn't seen much of such change though in 20 years. So, I can understand her discouragement.

I hope that came across as self-addressing of my character, not complaining about my wife. Did it?

Thanks,
Remark

That has nothing to do with your character, but everything to do with making unworkable decisions. You need to find another solution. And truly, denigrating your "character" is not helpful. You just need to learn to negotiate solutions that work for you. And you can re-negotiate them if you find it not working.

Your actions might reflect your "feelings;" but your feelings FOLLOW your actions. Change your behavior and your feelings will follow. My H and I very often negotiate decisions and then decide later that one of us is unhappy with that decision. That means that the original decision is off the table and we go to the default decision until something new is negotiated.

Since F5 does not appear to do this, you should either

1. If you are in the habit of checking your emails constantly, go to "My Stuff" (at the top of every page) and go to Watch Lists - and add this thread to your watch lists. Then, still in "My Stuff", go to preferences and "By default should anything added to your Watch Lists be emailed to you?" click "yes". Don't forget to save each change you make.

That way, every time someone posts to this thread, you will get an email of the post, and you can come to the thread and reply to the post. The email will be sent to the address that you gave when you registered here, so you need to check that address constantly.

2. Alternatively, if you do not check that email address constantly, check for new posts either by using the "refresh" button at the side of your address bar, or click again on the link for the forum "Marriage Builders 101", and you will see new posts to every thread. The link for the forum is at the top and bottom of every page.

If you think about it for just a few minutes, you (and your wife) will see that this is patently untrue.

Our actions do not necessarily reflect anything at all. What is important about them, however, is that they create an impression; they have an effect on other people.

Think about how we learn good behaviour when we are children. We are told to say "sorry" when we do not really know what being sorry means. We are told not to interrupt a conversation, or not to snatch a toy from another child, when we want to do those things all the time. We are forced to do those things against our selfish, impatient natures, and in time, we do those things without being reminded. We might not have very warm feelings for the people with whom we have to interact, but we do not enjoy the consequences if we behave badly towards them, so, in time, we learn not to behave badly.

As an adult, when we go for a job interview, we know how to modify our speech and behaviour so that the employer gets a good impression of us. If we need to appear in court, we dress respectfully and watch our language in front of the judge. If we are stopped by a police officer for a minor traffic violation, we bite our tongues and curb our irritation. If we see someone in the street whom we think is a bit of a bore, we still say "hi, how are you?" rather than let them know how we really feel. We don't use ripe language in front of our children and we demonstrate behaviours in front of them that we would like to see them learn. We don't tell dirty jokes or discuss intimate things in front of them. We save adult conversations for when they are not around.

We modify our behaviour all the time. We do not go around unleashing our inner feelings on anybody and everybody. I bet you that if you knew the next time you acted independently towards your wife it would land you in jail, you wouldn't do it. If you were offered the opportunity to win $1m for not losing your temper for a year, you wouldn't lose it.

Psychoanalysing one's character or one's "heart" only ends up making this a much more difficult issue than it needs to be. I'm not saying that it is easy to unlearn independent behaviour (or any bad habit) and apply POJA overnight, but it isn't as hard to change bad habits as you seem to be claiming. You do not have to change your character first - and tell me, how would you do that? What therapy or potion exists that can change a person from the inside out?

You start by changing the behaviours. Over a long period of time, you might in fact find that you have changed your character. An impatient, angry person who learns to control his anger will eventually not be a person prone to anger. Dr Harley describes how he did exactly that. However, the first step is to stop doing what annoys your wife and start doing what she wants you to do.

Remark- are you there? What were your thoughts about HappyHeart's comment?


Have you pondered this? Really thought about it? Can you please paraphrase the point that HappyHeart trying to make to show that you are mulling it over a bit...letting it incubate and spread out in your thoughts?

OK, Thanks for the F5 advice. I'll do that as soon as I get caught up here on posts.
Thanks,
Remark

Yes, I get that I think. It is akin to one of my favorite quotes "Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care."

To me, it means even if I am right and she is wrong is not the point. God will judge me on how much I cared for, sacrificed even what is right, to be caring to/for my wife. And, though I am a christian, and am only saying this in the context of this post........... Even if we take God out of it, if I am right and she is wrong, and I forego the "rightness" to be caring of/for her, I'll get closer to having a Harley marriage. And God will be honored in a sense.

That close to what HH is saying?

Thanks,
Remark

I think I got this a bit wrong:

First, when you are in this thread, to go "Topic Options" at the top of the page. Click "Add topic to your watched topics" from the drop-down menu. Then go to "My Stuff" and opt to have watched topics emailed to you. That's it, done.

Remember only to choose that option if you regularly check that email account.

Rarely is anybody "right" and anybody "wrong" in marital conflicts. What we are usually dealing with, when we disagree with our spouse, is our different perspectives. I doubt very much that there was an objective right or wrong about the issue you were trying to POJA with your son.

You need to do more than give up being right, or proving that you are right. You need to give up the language of "right" altogether.

Remind me: have you read the books Love Busters, and He Wins She Wins?

Sugarcane,

OK, I need to understand this better. I agree that we learn acceptable behavior as kids, etc. I agree that behavior is learned and can be changed.

I like your analogy of "what therapy or potion changes character?" I think I agree with you, too. And, I'm not good at psychoanalyzing someone else's actions/behavior.

I think what I'm up against is 20 years of behavior that my wife can't live with any longer, and we've classified as character.

The Harley program is the most scientific, best out there and it deals with behavior modification though he does talk about how a spouse is a "serial affair-haver" or whatever, which sounds like 'character', to me.

I am focused on behavior and changing it, MINE, of course.

Good insight.

Am I losing the "withering contempt"? ( I've been re-reading all posts, especially yours. I don't know who cited withering contempt in my comments, [I don't recall who, and I'm not saying you]. I'm just saying I am sensitive to that behavior or style of mine and since it does not convey my true feelings for my wife, I am aware and changing that behavior where I sense it.


Thanks,
Remark