No, I'm not filing for divorce, as I will be bringing my son to Germany to start school within this year or the next. It will make it easier for me to settle all the documentation.

Once my son is well-settled, and the separation reaches 2 years, I will begin the long process of filing for divorce.

I have moved to another city because we received a new contract from an existing, difficult and demanding client with poor taste, which my husband doesn't like to work on. This move is required for the fulfillment of this difficult contract, and provides some breathing space for me.

I dislike this project too, and would much prefer to work on another more interesting modern residential project I helped our office to secure, but I have to follow my husband's orders. He wants me out of the project that I like, he wants me to deal with the difficult project and client, I just have to take it, I just have to do it.

I feel it is unfair to me, but he doesn't see it that way.

Once and for all, I am NOT seeing anyone, though I wish I were. After 13 years of a pretty miserable existence, I do wish that I will have the good fortune to meet someone who actually cares for me.

I am very concerned about this plan. I believe your husband will fight you for custody and will likely win as he can present a case for you having abandoned your home and child. Your husband can easily prevent you taking the child overseas.

Generally NY courts will give primary custody to whichever parent is currently looking after the child unless there is a strong reason to change.

Divorce in NY can take up to 10 years. Mine took 6 years. He can destroy the marital assets while you are overseas. Filing does not protect the assets entirely but it does give you some protection.

There is no reason to wait two years if you have decided to divorce. The longer this current arrangement continues, the worse the outcome will be for you. File under the old fault law and do it now.

Actually as her boss, her husband is forcing her out of the country. That won't look good to a judge.

I do not see anything that a judge would consider forceful removal from the country. She is a qualified professional with the right to live in the US. A judge would see a move to Germany as voluntary.

So your son is with your H and you're in a different country?

Have you written Dr. Harley?

Happy Valentine's Day to all, with or without a spouse, we all have our special someone, our family, our dear friends and our children, there's love there to embrace on this day. I'm going to hug my kids tight!

We're a sort of a gathering of hurt spouses, aren't we? It's good to be here for each other, and to remind ourselves to look forward to a better life ahead without the suffering inflicted by those who have hurt us badly.

I'm not living in a different country, just a different city 2 hours away to work closer with the client's project. This is why I visit the children often, about every half a month.

They now spend almost all of their time in school, on their phones and computers. I miss them a lot, but there's also a sense that they are becoming more independent every day.

What's great is they love and respect me, and I don't feel any alienation from them.

My husband loves the children, and I think he won't hurt or harm me in any way, as it would hurt the kids.

He doesn't hate me, he is simply a Taker, it's just that he can't see that he is a Taker. There's a term for it, the Dunning-Kruger effect? I can't live with being a Giver all of my life and negate my needs. Our problems stem from our constant fighting because I am feeling crushed and depressed by what I feel is a raw deal of a marriage for me, the injustice of it. He wants me to accept him as he is, not fight for what I have articulated as my own needs.

As for our assets, I don't even know if we have any, or how much there is, etc. He never disclosed any finances of our office to me, the accountant is kept away and told not to talk to me, even though we are married and work in the same firm. He doesn't see a problem with keeping these things from me.

I have approached a Catholic organization that provides mediation and arbitration. I hope to avoid expensive lawyers as we slowly wind down our marriage and try to share responsibilities for the children. This not only preserves what little savings I have left for myself, it will be kinder on the kids.

One slow step at a time...no rush there into filing for divorce and engaging in custody fights. Even though I have checked out, I would like a soft landing as much as possible for this failing marriage.

Have you read what Dr. Harley says about the giver and taker?
The Giver and Taker

Yes, I have. To me, the spouse who has to give in all the time to the wishes, decisions and whims of the other spouse is the Giver. The spouse who controls and decides everything against the wishes, needs and views of the other is the Taker. However, what if the Taker refuses or cannot see that s/he is Taking?

This is where we are at, and there's no hope because even something as fundamental as objectivity in the marriage is not possible, i.e. the Taker refuses to accept that he has been Taking.

I am extremely depressed being the Giver, and I know that I will continue being the Giver in this marriage till the day I die. I need to live for myself, I have the right to my own life.

You do not have the correct understanding of Givers and Takers which is why you are feeling depressed. You might want to read up on this. Brainy posted the link to you. You are free to take MB advice or not but either way you will feel better once you understand the concepts.

Again, if you spent some time understanding MB you would see that this is a deeply flawed way to look at the world and you will take it with you into any future relationships.

Gave, honey, it's a rough thing, never learning how to say no. I hope you can try these things in the article out, learn to balance your giving nature with checking your own judgment, too. Taking an assignment away from your kids and only visiting every other week sounds like someone who really needs to take some time to think things through for yourself. Because if your H is telling you this is a good idea, you're putting his needs over your children's, to their detriment.

Have you ever read HNHN for Parents? Your kids need you to be there to teach them thoughtfulness. I would love to see you take these ideas to heart and think through what you want and bring your taker to the table and stop letting this man talk you out of parenting your kids

Perhaps I really don't understand what it means by a Giver or Taker, then please enlighten me.


To me, a Giver is someone who gives to make the other person happy, even when the Giver is himself/herself unhappy, or feel it's unfair.

The Taker is the one who gets his or her own way, even if his or her spouse is unhappy.

Please tell me what is the definition of a Giver or a Taker that is different from the above?

I understand that for a marriage to work, there has to be a balance between giving and taking, which is why a POJA needs to be implemented.

But what if the Taker refuses to see that s/he has been Taking and not Giving?

My husband won't compromise, won't discuss, won't negotiate. If I don't follow what he wants, it leads to terrible fights. He hangs up, shuts off, walks off, etc. He controls all the decisions, for the kids, for our finances, for the office, for everything. He even walked into obvious scams, I can only let him do whatever he wanted to do and then he learned his lessons.

One huge problem from the start of our marriage is his refusal to communicate AT ALL. If we can't communicate, even to talk about the rockiness of our marriage, to lay facts on the table, about what we can do to save it, etc., to arrive at a discussion about MB or the POJA, I honestly don't see how the marriage can work.

If I told him that our staff Ann pays for the rent, bills, food, clothes, etc. for her family, and not her husband, he would say that she is shouldering most of the familial burden and responsibilities.

But as I draw a modest salary from our office, similar to what Ann is making, and I use up all of this salary to pay for rent, food, bills, clothes, living expenses, etc., for our family, he is adamant that he's the one ultimately paying for household because he is paying me this salary from the office he runs, even though I shoulder a huge responsibility at work, delivering designs, guiding the team, meeting with the clients.

This is what he tells his parents and friends, and they are upset with me because I am not doing my part contributing to the household.

This is what I mean when I said we can't agree on facts.

I am working now in another city because I need to earn an income. I will be living off my savings otherwise. My husband doesn't give me any money.

Arrange a separation. See a lawyer.

A lawyer will inform your husband that 'his' salary is actually legally half yours.

A marital negotiation which relies on facts is doomed because you have different perspectives.

Your baseline for negotiations should be saying x,y or z bothers you and you require he desist out of respect for your feelings.

You should not try to convince him you are 'right'. Asserting a superior perspective or grasp of the facts is a disrespectful judgement.

Keep it about respect for your feelings on the matter.

Ah, I think he sees it the other way, my salary is half his, and his salary's all his.

As to how I feel about this, that is my problem, and my problem alone. If I'm not happy about it, go take a pill.

I absolutely do not talk about my feelings because that gets him running, hanging up and shutting me off. Our communication is zilch...I am talking much more on this thread than in the entirety of our marriage.

In a way, I had a distorted idea of "love" and "marriage" before coming across MB. I believed that I had to give to fulfill my responsibility to my vows, despite how I felt, and as predicted in MB, one day, I just revolted. This dawning hasn't helped to bring my husband to the table. If anything, we're farther apart than before.

It's ok, I have checked out, and although fearful of the future, I feel optimism in a way, for the first time after 13 years of marriage.

The truth is that your husband is a rotten businessman and he has relied on you to keep the business solvent. You have both refused to be honest about this by not discussing it. You need to own your part in this avoidance strategy. You should have calmly stated how you felt, rinse and repeat until he finally got the message that you were serious. You can still do this even now. The breakdown of your marriage is going to end in bankruptcy for him and financial disaster for all of you. He needs to know this.

Of course you got to a breaking point, everyone does. Unfortunately that did not bring your husband to his senses because you did not tell him. Don't you think it might be good to get this out in the open?

The reason you feel better now is simply because you are no longer having to deal with this on a daily basis but you are still running away from conflict.

I talk very well with my friends, with my kids, with my family, everyone except my husband.

I am not the one avoiding, he runs away every time I tried to talk to him.

For 13 years, I have been trying to talk to him and to communicate with him. He hates any form of talk that isn't trivial, he said "i love you" only a handful of times, in our marriage and never once for the past 8 years.

He talks really well with his pals, with the kids, with others.

He doesn't want to talk about why he doesn't want to talk.

We tried to see a therapist, we tried Alpha Marriage, nothing worked. He just hates to talk about anything except for trivia and stupid jokes. Or to talk about other people, he is so critical of others.

My husband just doesn't want to talk to me. It isn't possible to have a marriage with zero communication.

He doesn't see it as a problem.

This is why i gave up, I need a companion in life. I need comforting, I need love, I am not getting any in this marriage from my husband.

He is incapable of doing anything at all for me. He isn't interested either.

You dont know that he is "incapable of doing anything" for you.
That is your opinion.

Tons of disrespectful judgements starting with the title of your thread. Do you see that?

Nobody is obligated to use MB methods, in fact most people in the world do not. But I guarantee you that you will not what you want - a companion in life, be comforted and be loved unless you stop both the disrespect and the dishonesty.

The next marriage will degrade in exactly the same way. There is no magic here, it is just a question of understanding your part in what went wrong.

Don't you think that you are also judging me? I don't even know you and you have a ton of opinions about me already. You even know what will be the outcome for my "next marriage", as if you knew that I will or will not get married again?

Why do you feel it's ok to judge me, but not ok for me to judge my husband? I have had 12 years of paying for him and the whole family without a word of thanks, but plenty of abuse from him, to base my judgment on.

What makes you think I am "dishonest"? What lies did I tell?

No matter, the marriage is ended for me, I am learning to move on in life and try to find my own lifeboat. I am no longer thinking of him, but for the two kids.

I arrive at this opinion after futilely trying for 12 years. I have asked for very little, for him to pay for half of household after paying 100% for many years, for him not to spend the money I have helped to make on what I judged correctly to be scams or drain on our resources. I never received a birthday present from him except on 2 occasions, never any anniversary presents, never asked for them either. I don't ask him for gifts, deeds or help. I only ask that he respects my views and opinions, and he could not do that. So I no longer know what he is "capable of doing for me".

I am holding an olive branch out to him to work together for the kids. We both need to care for them and to raise them properly, regardless of what happened to the marriage. He is a loving father, though too indulgent for the children's own good, I believe in loving but firm boundaries, but as long as he cares for them, this can be worked out.

The marriage though, only works when there's love left in it.