Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15,806
Likes: 7
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15,806
Likes: 7
Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
Well, for 2000 years the Church has always taught that the husband was to be the head of the house, just as Christ is head of the Church.
The marriage is somewhat of a picture of Gods relationship with the Church.
The issue is that Dr. Harley is not the Pope. Hes only been alive for maybe 70 years and the Church has existed for 2000 years.

In centuries past, the Church interpretation was working and there was little divorce (with exceptions such as King Henry who wanted to divorce his wife; the Pope wouldn't let him so he banned the Church).
People could not divorce because it (1) would not be granted in most cases and (2) there were no women rights.

Today women have rights and they dont want to be controlled by their husband. Harley has commented on this as well on the Radio Show.
In our modern age, some parts of the Biblical rules and Church traditions on marriage are not followed


Many disagree with the idea of there even being a Pope. At least one large church has disagreed with that for 1000 years.

Last edited by markos; 09/19/13 10:53 AM.

If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,492
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,492
Well I disagree with denominations and also disagree with any one person repesenting as some head figure as if he is any better than the rest of us.

With that said I did a bunch of searches and finally figured out the guys name and his thread.

Mortarman's thread "Husband and wifes roles"
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/u...231#Post1379231

Has a lot of similarily related dialog as the articles. I will look it over more thoroughly later.

MNG

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15,806
Likes: 7
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15,806
Likes: 7
I would like to testify that my wife came into our marriage with an idea of "headship" and "submission" that nearly ruined our marriage. There is a post she has made somewhere on the board called "How my GIVER nearly ruined our marriage."

She was so oriented toward "submitting" to me that she very quickly killed the love she had for me and went into depression. The only solution for that depression was the restoration of our relationship.

I am not convinced that a reading of the Bible that has the wife "submitting" in the way most religious people mean is what God meant when He wrote those words. Many people are setting up a relationship where the wife obeys a husband like a child obeying a parent. I just don't see that ever expressed as a Biblical model for leadership of any sort. Even the apostles were restrained in what they could instruct church members to do (witness in Acts where Peter indicated that giving had to be voluntary and until given to the church, property and money belonged to its owner who could decide whatever they wanted to do with it, give it or not). Even elders are instructed not to "lord it over" God's heritage.

An understanding of the Bible that allows for a husband to "lord it over" his wife, issue instructions to his wife, set direction for his wife is a MISunderstanding if you ask me. Demands are utterly destructive to a marriage and I don't think a single part of God's word is being correctly read if it is used to justify them.

Regardless of what those passages are expressing about marriage, they do not claim to be the solution to all marital problems. In most cases I know where these passages are brought up in contexts like this board, where people come for marital help, the result is that the wife is told to put up with the problem and not complain, that this is the definition of submitting and following her husband's leadership.

Horsehockey. smile And you can tell your church's leaders I said so. The Bible was not written to describe a marriage where the husband makes demands of his wife. The very first step in following the Bible, in loving your wife, is to eliminate abuse and control from your marriage: demands, disrespect, and anger.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 1
L
Member
Online Content
Member
L
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
Well, for 2000 years the Church has always taught that the husband was to be the head of the house, just as Christ is head of the Church.


Mmmm not quite. Marriage is a very modern concept and until recently only existed in the west for for those with assets to protect the blood line.

Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
The marriage is somewhat of a picture of Gods relationship with the Church.


Other way around, we have created a picture of God's relationship with the Church to reflect a simplistic version of the deity.

Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
The issue is that Dr. Harley is not the Pope. Hes only been alive for maybe 70 years and the Church has existed for 2000 years.

In centuries past, the Church interpretation was working and there was little divorce (with exceptions such as King Henry who wanted to divorce his wife; the Pope wouldn't let him so he banned the Church).


500 years ago marriages lasted an average 7 years which is the same as today. The difference was that people died. Difficult husbands were quietly poisoned and wives often died in childbirth.

Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
People could not divorce because it (1) would not be granted in most cases and (2) there were no women rights.


There were no rights, nobody had rights of any kind. Through most of human history life was about surviving.

Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
Today women have rights and they dont want to be controlled by their husband. Harley has commented on this as well on the Radio Show.
In our modern age, some parts of the Biblical rules and Church traditions on marriage are not followed


Actually until very recently responsibilities were segregated. The woman's domain was the house and children and her word was law, the man's domain was to the outside world. This is still the pattern in most of the world and, when it works it works well.

What has changed, is that these roles have become blurred creating the need for the MB guidance of Dr Harley. There has been a paradigm shift.


3 adult children
Divorced - he was a serial adulterer
Now remarried, thank you MB
(formerly lied_to_again)
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15,806
Likes: 7
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15,806
Likes: 7
Originally Posted By: living_well
Originally Posted By: Jedi_Knight
Well, for 2000 years the Church has always taught that the husband was to be the head of the house, just as Christ is head of the Church.


Mmmm not quite. Marriage is a very modern concept and until recently only existed in the west for for those with assets to protect the blood line.


???

This is very quickly becoming a free for all for everybody's personal opinions and all kinds of unsubstantiated historical claims.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,492
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,492
At least its interesting conversation going on here. smile

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 53
Administrator
Member
Offline
Administrator
Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 53
Please be sure to stick to the original purpose of this thread: compare the linked material to Marriage Builders. Do not veer off into religious debates.


mizar.mb1@gmail.com
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,492
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,492
Thank you Mizar.

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 78
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 78
Quote:
I am not convinced that a reading of the Bible that has the wife "submitting" in the way most religious people mean is what God meant when He wrote those words. Many people are setting up a relationship where the wife obeys a husband like a child obeying a parent. I just don't see that ever expressed as a Biblical model for leadership of any sort. Even the apostles were restrained in what they could instruct church members to do (witness in Acts where Peter indicated that giving had to be voluntary and until given to the church, property and money belonged to its owner who could decide whatever they wanted to do with it, give it or not). Even elders are instructed not to "lord it over" God's heritage.


If pasting this is in violation of not veering off then it can be removed, but it was really good and I thought reflects the balance of MB well. No one is a doormet or giver to the point of harm.

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,093
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,093
Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley to a pastor
Uh, where do I begin. I can't tell you how many couples I've counseled where one spouse did just what you suggested -- sacrifice their own enjoyment for the pleasure of their spouse. The reason I'm counseling them, of course, is that the one doing the sacrificing eventually can't take giving without receiving anymore, and wants a divorce. One recent cases that comes to mind is a pastor's wife. He gave your message to his wife throughout their marriage. They have reconciled, but only because he finally understands the concept of mutual care. Unless both he and his wife enjoy their ... experience, she comes to hate it. ...

It's dangerous stuff you're recommending. It ruins marriages.


I know this is an older thread but it's just one of many where the above quote is used and I can't find it any where searching around. I was wondering about the context. Did it get lost in the infamous server crash I've heard mentioned?


Me (42)
Her (43) - feuillecouleur

DS(11)
DD(7)

Married: June 24, 2000

Recovered
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
That thread was indeed lost in the crash of October 2009. <?> The thread was started by a woman who had a sexual aversion. A pastor posted to her that she should "submit" to her husband and just have sex with him. Dr. Harley had been posting to the thread starter and responded to the pastor.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
Originally Posted By: Prisca
"To submit to your husband does not mean you agree with him on everything, it means you recognize his position as head of the household to accomplish God's purposes as it relates to the family ... The job of the head is to give direction to the body. The duty of the wife is to willingly place all of her strengths under the authority of the husband to follow him as he follows Christ."

This goes against POJA.

And this is NOT Biblical submission. Biblical submission lines up with POJA quite well. A wife is to submit to her husband, meaning she does not do anything that he is not enthusiastic about. Likewise, a husband loves his wife as he loves himself, and will not do anything that she is not enthusiastic about.

There is no "guidance" and "direction" by the husband, nor does the wife willingly place herself under the husband's authority.


I find the articles to be riddled with errors and quite anti MB, but not the biblical references themselves.

As a non religious person I began my marriage with an idea of equality, quite unlike yours Prisca, which meant I shouldered too much of the marriage.

I'm fascinated by this word 'agape' - demonstrative love? Presumably when the man doesn't always feel like it? We see that so much with Plan A husbands I'm intrigued.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 968
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 968
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love

A primer on agape and other Greek concepts of love.



My $.02 on this topic:

My marriage counselor had me read "Every Man's Marriage" by Steve Arterburn and Fred Stoeker when my WW and I started counseling. It had the same general approach as this article and most Evangelical commentary I see on marriage relations, except perhaps it was harsher on the husband. I was pretty desperate to save my marriage and I read the whole thing cover to cover in few short days.

It was a great crash course on helping a man identify what we would call "Love Busters" in the Marriage Builders framework and helped me a lot that way, but like most church commentary I see on the actual processes of married life, I thought it was not terribly practical for someone in the trenches. It had nothing to offer me on how to negotiate conflict, how to deal with sexual aversion or identifying/meeting other emotional needs, etc. It was basically a lot of examples of men behaving badly and how this ruined their marriages in some way. You get a lot of ideals thrown at you without a lot of specifics (or terribly misguided specifics). Really great ideas, but not a lot of actual processes for negotiating solutions with your wife.

I'm not saying the ideals are bad, or that the commentary like this doesn't have value, but what stands MB head and shoulders above stuff like this is that it has practical specifics which (from everything I've seen) are soundly compatible or even rooted in Scriptural principles if you care about that sort of thing.

I frankly feel sorry for a lot of the Evangelical newlyweds I see around me that are thrown into the fray with little more than "love your wife as Christ loved the church" and "as long as you're both focused on serving God, you will be fine". These statements do have very complex scriptural and philosophical underpinnings that would infer the types of processes MB describes if they were closely examined, but more often than not they are not closely examined.

My experience was that once I got disappointed in my marriage, it became easier for me to twist these ideals in my mind to fit my current behavior, and in doing so, to slowly slide into love busting habits because I could always look at what was "worse" in my mind and say "at least I'm not doing that! See, I'm a good husband!"

The specificity of MB does not allow for that. I consider MB almost like a necessary extrapolation of these ideas that is much less flexible for creative reinterpretation.


Happily remarried to wonderful woman who I found using the guidelines in "Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders"
2 baby boys, working on #3 and couldn't ask for anything more.

When my ex's affair happened: BH 28, Ex-WW:29
Married: 7 years
Together: 8 years
D-day: 10/5/2014
D filed: 1/22/2015
D Final: 6/4/2015

My story
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,093
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,093
This was a question I sent to the radio show. Dr Harley discusses religious advice vs Christian advice.

I did write to them incorrectly that this advice was offered by a counselor. It was, in fact offered by a friend, and then later the idea was brought to the counselor who suggested that the person being counseled could start by not calling the OW names if that was what they wanted to do.

In any event, the discussion was interesting and I think on point with this thread:

Originally Posted By: BrainHurts


Me (42)
Her (43) - feuillecouleur

DS(11)
DD(7)

Married: June 24, 2000

Recovered
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,492
M
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,492
*rises from the grave*

Whoah.. My phone has been dinging for last couple days.. Guess I had this thread on watch.

*waves*

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 968
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 968
Originally Posted By: FightTheFight
This was a question I sent to the radio show. Dr Harley discusses religious advice vs Christian advice.

I did write to them incorrectly that this advice was offered by a counselor. It was, in fact offered by a friend, and then later the idea was brought to the counselor who suggested that the person being counseled could start by not calling the OW names if that was what they wanted to do.

In any event, the discussion was interesting and I think on point with this thread:

Originally Posted By: BrainHurts


These were REALLY good and I think this practically needs to be stickied somewhere for all betrayed spouses to see.

Nearly ALL of the pushback I got on snooping and exposure (and I got a lot of it from some people in the family) was offered on religious grounds, like I was being "unGodly" to snoop or expose WW or OM.

I think this happens a lot from what I read other people saying!


Happily remarried to wonderful woman who I found using the guidelines in "Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders"
2 baby boys, working on #3 and couldn't ask for anything more.

When my ex's affair happened: BH 28, Ex-WW:29
Married: 7 years
Together: 8 years
D-day: 10/5/2014
D filed: 1/22/2015
D Final: 6/4/2015

My story
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,093
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,093
I know of a recent case in which the wife caught her husband in bed with his step daughter. This woman is convinced that if she does not forgive him and return home that she will go to hell. So she has returned to the home with no real plan other than a supposed biblical obligation to forgive. It's kinda sad but there is no convincing someone who believes this way.


Me (42)
Her (43) - feuillecouleur

DS(11)
DD(7)

Married: June 24, 2000

Recovered
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 968
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 968
Originally Posted By: FightTheFight
I know of a recent case in which the wife caught her husband in bed with his step daughter. This woman is convinced that if she does not forgive him and return home that she will go to hell. So she has returned to the home with no real plan other than a supposed biblical obligation to forgive. It's kinda sad but there is no convincing someone who believes this way.


This is a tragedy. shocked

Think of all of the false guilt that is being imposed on this woman out of misguided religious teaching.

If they want to talk about "Biblical obligation" I could show them a few passages in Leviticus about having sex with your relatives that would clear up their misunderstanding in a hurry. wink


Happily remarried to wonderful woman who I found using the guidelines in "Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders"
2 baby boys, working on #3 and couldn't ask for anything more.

When my ex's affair happened: BH 28, Ex-WW:29
Married: 7 years
Together: 8 years
D-day: 10/5/2014
D filed: 1/22/2015
D Final: 6/4/2015

My story
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,093
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,093
I personally believe it is a form of opinion shopping. If you look around on the net long enough you will eventually find something that supports what you wanted to do in the first place.

Last edited by FightTheFight; 03/12/15 01:06 PM.

Me (42)
Her (43) - feuillecouleur

DS(11)
DD(7)

Married: June 24, 2000

Recovered
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
Originally Posted By: FightTheFight
I know of a recent case in which the wife caught her husband in bed with his step daughter. This woman is convinced that if she does not forgive him and return home that she will go to hell. So she has returned to the home with no real plan other than a supposed biblical obligation to forgive. It's kinda sad but there is no convincing someone who believes this way.


How very, very awful. I don't for one minute think anyone can be that mistaken as to where their duty lies.

She's just letting herself off the hook.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 34 guests, and 50 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Lethabo, Livn1dayAtaTime, widup, Reggg, Endlessvow
71,682 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,528
Posts2,322,563
Members71,682
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5