Sue,

What exactly is it you expect to hear? I say this in kindness, but the analogy here is some who comes to the doctor with a self diagnosis, refuses any tests to determine if their self diagnosis is correct, and demands treatment. What kind of irresponsible doctor would treat a patient without checking the diagnosis him/her self?

Sue, I don't understand the hostility. If you want to use this program to help your marriage, then my next question is does your husband want to? The actions the program specifies for you depend on whether the answer to that question is yes or no.

Sue, it is very important that we know whether he wants to practice the concepts or not.

If he does not want to practice the concepts, then the program advises you to separate.

If he does not want to practice the concepts and you stay with him anyway, then you aren't following the program, either.

The program works when followed.

If you don't follow the program, we can't help you.

Nobody has read everything on the site. Everybody who thinks so is unaware of just how much is here.

I have not read everything on the site and I have definitely spent lots more time than you here.

Also, there is a lot of information Dr. Harley gives out on his daily radio show that is not on the site anywhere or in any of his books.


The radio show is free and will give you lots more information for your situation, where your husband won't get on board. Most of the books are written assuming that both husband and wife are enthusiastic about following the plan.


Just print out the Basic Concepts, give them to him and say "I would like it if we would try this in our marriage," and let us know what his reaction is.

I do not understand why you expect this program to work if you will not follow it.

Please stay on one thread. This will help other posters to help you better.

Sue, this isn't a conflict resolution forum where we resolve specific conflicts for you. It is a place to learn those skills on your own. We can help you do that if you are interested. Otherwise, you are wasting your time here.

When you focus on conflicts, it's really important to get a 'sorry' and for the other person to have viewed the situation from your perspective.

That's how you 'win' a conflict, to be the right person and for the other to be in the admittedly in the wrong.

Your H has grudgingly done this. But it doesn't help.

That's why you badgered him for an apology even though you knew it is OK for him to have viewed the food situation differently to you.

You're badgering him about a small conflict because you're scared to draw a harder line on the real issue - his lifestyle is divorced from yours and it means that he does all kinds of little annoying things because you're not around to get input.

THATS what he can 'do about it now' - start living an integrated life with you.

I sincerely hope that you find an answer. I know that you are overlooking the solutions that are here. My wife and I have used Marriage Builders principles with great success in our own marriage and we can bear witness to the fact that they work. But if the only solutions you are open to are either the provenly ineffective methodologies of marriage counselors or ending it all with a divorce, then I wish you well with your life.

As to your dinner conflict, I see a it as a classic exercise in the application of MB principles. Do you see the overall problem? I see a failure to follow POJA in an environment of highly IB on both of your parts. As a student of MB, what do you think the answer is? I'd say you need to integrate your lives better. Find ways to exercise together. It won't help to buy more chicken, but it will help if you start looking for opportunities for quality UA time.

The last time I posted here, things did not go well. I am trying one more time, carefully. I think.

A little catch up: husband and I are still "together". We have had lots of conversations about our relationship. We are getting better at cutting them off before they become fights. He continues to say that "things are getting better." To me, things are the same.

Last time I posted, there was a huge battle here about whether he could be having an affair and whether I should be installing crud on his computer. I did not then and do not now suspect he is having an affair with another woman. My decision on spyware/keyloggers, etc is the same (can't and won't). I would almost welcome news of an affair because it might give me insight into what EN he has that I'm not meeting. I mention this part with trepidation as it is likely to become the focus of the thread again, although that is not my intent.

We have copies of HNHN and the one for parents. He claims to have read them, but when I tried once, gently, to ask his thoughts, he had nothing to say except that he felt like the writing style was overdone. No comments on the content. He didn't ask me any questions in return, so the conversation died there. No, we're not doing the program. I've tried providing lists of possible marriage counselors--to the best of my knowledge, he has ignored the lists. And the pointers to this website.

I have tried to ask about his EN's. He gives pretty wishy-washy answers. He claims he doesn't have them, or can't enumerate them. Yes, he has a copy of the quesitonaire. No, he has not agreed to fill it out.

In the mean time, the EN's that I have long been missing, and that he has refused to meet are still unmet. We still do not talk--no intimate conversation. There is no 15 hours of UA time. There is basically no UA time (I'm not sure we can count more than an hour a week, and that is cumulative, at home after kids go to bed). He has a lot of excuses for why we can't go out on dates, mostly centering on why he can't find enough time to even think about what a date might be (let alone find a babysitter or plan an activity). I have stopped attempting to invite him to do so, because that line of discussion quickly evolves into a fight. We had a total of 3 early this year, which is a record (and which followed a series of fights, and which he apparently assumed would magically fix years of neglect--I planned 2 of them). I dearly miss recreation--90% of my recreation is alone (a weekly aerobics class, sometimes a bike ride), or a rare girls dinner out (1x a month if I'm lucky). The rest is really FC time--which becomes negative amount of recreation for me (planning/preparing/supervising activities with children is WORK for me). So not only am I missing RC time with my husband, I actually am missing it altogether. Admiration and affection are missing or just wrong--he still treats me like his personal teddy bear, squeezing me at inappropriate times (times he needs a hug and I'm usually otherwise busy, but it's him taking affection from me, not him giving it to me--it's not even me giving it to him at that point). I can't recall him telling or showing me any kind of appreciation (he will claim he has done otherwise, and point to the routine, automatic response of "thank you" as his contribution in that area, and then blame me for never believing him in the past).

I guess the only positive EN news is that sex is somewhat better. And though this is a big EN for me, with no admiration, no conversation, no RC from him it just feels empty for me. So, it's a huge issue for me when it goes away, but when it's back, without the rest of the EN's, it isn't love, just sex.

I am actively working on making sure that things I say are not DJ's or interpreted as them. This one is harder for me, because I believe that he frequently mis-interprets my words and reads in meaning that is not there (I believe this because when we fight, he will tell me what he inferred from my words--e.g. "The kitchen is messy" somehow translates into 1) a negative judgement of him and 2) a demand that he fix it immediately in lieu of whatever else he had going on...when all I was doing was stating an observation, not implying blame or demanding a solution). He will mis-interpret positive things I say also--recently he talked about looking into a potential job opportunity, and when I gave what I thought was a lot of support and positive encouragement (that while it could be good for his career, that I supported whatever his choice was, that he should learn more about it to see if he liked the option, etc), he later (in a fight) told me that I "yelled" at him(!) The short term fix here is that I say far less, and that I try to talk to him the same way I talk to near-strangers that I deal with at work--by carefully guarding my words. I'm not sure it's a good fix, and I'm sure that there's still something I'm doing wrong.

Other than that, I don't know what LB's are for him. He will never tell me what upsets him. Presumably demands are LB's (because he will then resent me for things), but I am careful to ask nicely and to give him the option of refusing (though apparently he doesn't ever see that as optional). The only way to avoid what he will assume are demands is for me to avoid ever asking if he wants to do anything.

I am trying to apply the conflict resolution principles, but it is difficult when done one-sided. If there is a conflict, he will either 1) not say that it is a conflict with something I suggest and then resent me later or 2) Drag his feet so long as to avoid whatever situation was causing the conflict. He won't add suggestions of his own in many cases. Or, he will wait until I think we have a plan agreed upon (and usually already in progress) and he will attempt to change it. Like we're on the way to some event with kids in the car and he starts suggesting alternative things that won't work at all with the plan that was already put in motion. Or we will plan to drive on our one vacation in the last xx years and at the last minute he gets upset that we aren't flying. Really, I guess the problem is that he doesn't contribute to the plan so I end up making plans (constantly asking him for input/opinions that don't come) and then he tries to change it after the work is done. So there is no negotiation. I am trying to avoid things that require joint planning. Also, not a good solution and I'm open to better ones.

The problem here is that he claims he is relatively happy. When he says "things are getting better" it is because we are fighting less, not because any changes have happened. Lack of fight = good times for him (as far as I can see). Lots of time for him + his family = good times (his family is a whole 'nother giant pool of conflict for me). Lots of time with him parenting the kids in his way (without my opinions, which frequently differ from his, a fact that continually surprises him) = good times. Few times where I speak = good times (that last one is my bad attitude showing, probably).

My plan right now is something like the Plan B. I am attempting, really really attempting, to do as many things as I can think of to make him happy. And also preparing myself for moving out. I am not picking fights with him, I am spending lots of time taking care of our kids and our house and suffering through time with his family (FC is definitely one of his needs), trying to be positive and encouraging (admiration) about things that he is doing (though that frequently backfires--he infers some hidden agenda in everything I say). I am trying to give him extra affection. The crappy part of this plan is that it is pretty much identical to many years of our relationship where I tried really hard to make him happy, while he sat back and enjoyed the fruits of my labor and neglected me in return. The difference today is that I have a decent idea of rental property costs, a little nest egg set aside for a downpayment and moving costs, etc.

I don't know how others who have walked this path before me have been able to stand it. Pouring so much energy into this big black hole while simultaneously preparing my life, protecting my heart and my life to ditch it all. Needing to talk myself through what leaving would mean if he doesn't come after me, and what would have to happen if he does.

I feel like I'm living a double life, lying to my children and to family & friends (at least not to myself). It sucks.