I sent this email to Joyce/Bill this morning...looking for any inputs from any of you with similar experience as well...Dividejim:

Hi Joyce/Bill, I just needed to drop you a note to let you know how things are going with my situation. I was on your radio program about a year ago and also had you respond to some of the items that I posted on the marriage builder's forum. My continuing problem with my wife has to do with being able to open up to her and be honest. We spoke on the radio program about how angry outbursts that begin with her and then end up with me joining in have been a problem with us. I've talked with my wife about what happens with an angry outburst on multiple occasions and we cannot seem to avoid them. My wife gets angry when I don't talk to her and I don't talk to her for fear of an angry outburst. She can be extremely vicious when they occur. I know that this contributes to my fear of speaking openly with her but whenever I bring it up, she tells me that I'm blaming her for my lack of doing anything (i.e. talking openly to her). I am mortified when I feel the pressure mounting to talk with her when we haven't talked in some time. I feel like I have some mental defense mechanism that kicks in for fear of an angry outburst and I don't say anything. I feel like I turn into a mushroom and have a totally empty tank when I am confronted for not talking to her. We have multiple items that I have done to her over the years that we have not talked out to her satisfaction and it only counts to my wife when I bring up the subject(s). If we hash things out during a fight that she prompted, our talking does not count. She has now kicked me out of the house (over this past weekend) and I have nowhere to go. I don't know if I should seek psychiatric counseling for this or what I should do. It is devastating our relationship. We are now at the point where she hates me and we cannot have any civil conversations anymore. I am miserable and in a real funk. I'm really looking for any help/advice that you can give me as to why this happens to me and how to fix it! I do struggle in social situations as well. I don't really have anything to say and unless I'm talking about work with other co-workers, I'm pretty much at a loss to have a normal conversation. I am in a professional position in my work and deal with a lot of folks so I do feel very constrained by this and am not sure what to do about it. Please help...thank you...Jim

What do you mean by this?

Do you have this problem at work also? Or is this problem with your wife impacting your job?

So your wife kicked you out because you don't speak to her or because you have not apologized for past or current wrongs?

Or did she kick you out because of Angry Outbursts?

I feel like I have the same problem at work and in any social situation...uncomfortable being open with people.

I have apologized for past and current wrongs. Her angry outbursts are brought on by my lack of "talking" with her about my past/current wrongs. She is asking me to talk to her about what I've done and explore the reasons why with her and how to prevent them in the future. This sounds like a reasonable request but when it comes down to it, I am at a loss for words and don't really know how to approach the situations. I feel like a robot when I bring things up and my approach is typically met with disappointment from my wife.

So is this mainly in response to others?
Or you have trouble initiating conversation in general?
Is this anytime there's a conflict? or does this happen while chit chatting?

Are you still committing lovebusters with Independent Behavior and Dishonesty?

Its mainly when in conflict with my wife. I can carry on a conversation fairly well but certainly don't feel confident in my abilities and what I talk about with others is very surface stuff. Nothing really of substance.

Yes to all

Jim-

You have obviously gone on the MB show. Do you listen every day and have access to the archives?

I do listen to the show every day and I paid for a years worth of radio archives as well. It all makes so much sense. I've approached my wife on occasion regarding the marriage builder's principles and she doesn't want to hear about it even though she is in step with every principle taught by Dr. Harley. She just doesn't know it. We seem to go through constant emotional withdrawal and then back to conflict but rarely if ever do we get to the intimate stage. I believe that both of our love bank balances are in the "hate" zone now; certainly my wife's.

It will be interesting to hear what Dr. Harley says.

But you wouldn't be in this bad of a situation if you had eliminated your own lovebusters. (Unless your wife is getting her needs met elsewhere.)

Can you answer this with specifics?

o Openness and Honesty - my wife has asked me to talk with her about the mistakes that I've made so that we can put these behind us. As I've explained earlier, I have not been able to find a way to do this I believe because I am afraid of an angry outburst from my wife even though this doesn't happen when I do approach her (it only happens when I don't). She always starts the angry outburst and then I get offended and have my own angry outburst. I've tried walking away from the situation but then she gets physical and even madder.

o Annoying Habits/Arguing - I seem to always justify why I did something or said something and it is truly arguing. I feel like I'm not heard and that I have justification for how I acted. I've realized that arguing doesn't help a situation at all and I've been focused on not arguing and this has helped. This, unfortunately is caused, I believe, by my independent behavior.

o Dishonesty - I think that I've probably improved the most in this area but my wife still doesn't trust me because of some of the mistakes that I've made in the past. Her level of trust in me is totally gone.

o Independent Behavior - I have worked on this and I still occasionally have independent behavior but it has diminished significantly.

o Disrespectful Judgments - I believe that this is really an area where my wife struggles and I don't. She uses ridicule and sarcasm heavily in dealing with me after she is spun up due to my lack of openness and honesty.

I think thats a pretty good summary of most of the love busters. I don't think that I use selfish demands at all.

jim, your problem is you still continue to commit lovebusters (diminishing them doesn't matter) and avoid conflict...any woman would be aggravated by this. I did not read all your posts but you said you have neglected your wife and lived a SSL (via IB and dishonesty) your ENTIRE marriage. 30 years of that would wear anyone down. While your wife shouldn't have AOs at you, it is understandable why she is frustrated and has given up. If she is getting physical with you during these AOs, it is better that you are out of the house.


In multiple threads you have stated your wife follows MB principles even if she doesn't know it. If that is the case, that is probably even more reason she is frustrated, angry and withdrawn from you. She does not need to be told about MB when you are the one not following the principles. I wouldn't want to hear my spouse telling me about MB when he doesn't even follow them...even after being aware of the concepts/principles...and talking to Dr H to boot. It's lip service.

I have not heard your call to Dr. H but I would imagine he told you to stop committing LBs and you have not done that.

Yes, I've already come to that same conclusion. While I understand that her anger has been building now for 30+ years, this is my main challenge in that I am now truly afraid of her. She is so vicious that I'm afraid that my subconscious fully expects an angry outburst if I attempt to test the water by being open about something. When I have been open with her, there have been no angry outbursts at all but I still get extremely concerned when I attempt to speak with her about things. I'm convinced that if I've taken action, I won't have any fear because I've actually done something. Its when I haven't taken any action that I am fearful. I hate to sound like a wimp but it really is quite scary when my wife goes off. It seems like taking action is the only thing that can give me any comfort. Sounds like a "duh" moment to me.

What I am going to say is NOT excusing her anger. But you are asking for help, so here is how I think that you could look at it.

When your wife gets angry at you, it could be that she is AFRAID! When you clam up, she gets more scared that you have something to hide, or else you would be more forthcoming with a response. Someone who has a fight response to fear, doesn't understand someone who has a flight response to fear.

The more you withhold information, the more frustrated she will be. NOT knowing, is scarier than knowing.

You have had a LONG time to discuss the past with her. But you keep procrastinating, and then BLAMING HER for your withholding problem.

That just scares her to death and infuriates her because she feels more HELPLESS and POWERLESS in dealing with you. I know that how she is responding seems like an ATTACK, but could you for a minute think of her anger as a FEAR reaction?

Did your wife ever talk with Dr. Harley and Joyce?

You need to come up with a canned answer that you have memorized. You use it when you are feeling anxious or see your wife getting upset. EVERY time.

Something like: I'm SORRY that I have upset you. I don't want to hurt you. Can I have a minute to calm down please? (Just because you tell her that you are sorry, doesn't make you the bad guy. It shows care. Everyone annoys others and makes mistakes.)

You may need to move all discussions to email form. That may be a better way for you to learn what it is that is bothering her. You freeze up, and nothing she is saying will enter under those conditions. Then she yells because she isn't feeling heard. If you move your discussions to email format, you both may be more careful about how you communicate, and you might see more of your lovebusters.

DivideJim- When you clam up at her distress, it can be like you are in the battle field and you run away and leave her alone and helpless. Don't leave her when she is hurt or upset. Hold her hand, hug her if she will let you. Tell her that you care!! Say "I'm sorry. I will try not to do that again."

I would try any of this and see if it helps her to calm down. If she gets MORE angry at this, then you have to tell her that you are sorry you have made her upset but you can't solve anything if you are both upset. Then leave if she doesn't calm down.