Read the last two paragraphs of my original post; because it appears that some are confused about what I'm willing and not willing to do.

My unwillingness to work on the marriage is through my years of talking, trying, and, yes, my changing. But it really does take two to make a marriage work! I am just not willing to forgive, move forward, and work toward a romantic marriage because he doesn't reciprocate. He goes on doing the things he's always done; and, yes, being the person he's always been: one that avoids, withdraws, and he sure doesn't admit that there's anything he's done wrong or needs to change!
I just can't love a man who has always distanced himself emotionally from me AND the kids. I can't and won't love him unconditionally.

You may not realize it, but this comes off as rude. What more is it that you are needing? Permission to divorce instead of trying out MB principles?

The posters here are trying to answer your 2 questions, but for whatever reason, you are not accepting their responses. It doesn't seem respectful to me, for you to ask these questions, and then tell the posters to insert a caveat of your being unwilling or willing.

Many people come here and get told that they should divorce. But in your case; you are being told that you MIGHT get what you need without divorcing.

I was in your shoes for 20 long years. What I can promise you is that MB principles provide for all of these issues, and also for inserting the fire where it may have never burned. It takes time and work, but it is definitely possible.

I think that working on these concepts is always worth a try, because any happy marriage or relationship for that matter, REQUIRES these skills to be functional and romantic over the long haul.

It is ultimately your choice. But please know that these people are trying to give you help and YOU are the one who, to me, appears confused. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

My Initial question was if a marriage like mine should be endured for the sake of the kids.
All things are possible; but that doesn't mean they will happen. I used to want my husband to be someone he's not. Now is that really fair to him? When I finally let go of the idea that he would magically change into a husband who listens, one who can treat me correctly when it comes to finances, and one who can actually be a part of this family...well, sometimes we have to accept that some men don't know how to be a part of any family, even their own.
He has chosen so many things over this marriage & family. His bank account and rental houses while railing on me and demanding I pay him back just doesn't sow seeds of affection in me! His choosing to engage in personal hobbies instead of coming home, instead of spending time with us as a family, instead of being actively involved with the kids. For so long he's done his thing and we've done ours. After years of it, now he isn't welcome. Now the kids would rather him NOT do things with us because it's strange to them.
I used to want to fix things. I begged him for months to go to professional counseling. When our pastor confronted him about how he knew we were having problems, and that he'd like to help, we went through a few sessions with him. The pastor and I did all the talking; and afterward I felt more hopeless and in despair than ever.
If it only takes my willingness and effort to fix this marriage, it would have been a long time ago. Because I tried for years with all my might.

For the record...
Here were your questions:


If you reread this thread, you will see that many posters answered these questions.

You are right. Some men don't know how. Did you know that Dr. Harley wrote his books in a manner to appeal to men so that they could learn these skills and integrate with their wives?

It is TOTALLYthe fair for your husband to change. It's good for everyone involved. Change takes time and willingness from BOTH parties. If you are too tired to deal with your husband, which is understandable, then what is the alternative?

Do you have a perfect replacement model ready to step in?

When will you be going into Plan B?

I didn't see an answer to this.

This is a choice you would need to make based on your own personal philosophy.
What Dr. Harley offers is a program to rebuild romantic love in marriages.

Dr. Harley also offers the observation that no, the marriage should not be endured like this for the sake of the kids, and that the wife should draw a line in the sand and separate from her husband to protect herself. That might also have the fortunate side effect of persuading her husband to get on board, but it might not.

Dr. Harley also offers a lot of great suggestions for personal recovery for a wife leaving a bad marriage, and the observation that most women do quite well when they get out on their own.

It really all depends if you want your daughter's husbands to be like this or for your sons to be husbands like this. My ex husband tried not to be like his dad but kept falling into the pattern of what is familiar to him.

I have happy married parents and I was always aghast around my ex in-laws. No dancing together, no talking to each other affectionately - it looked super weird to me. Especially when my FiL would walk off to talk to someone else without her.

Dr H talks all the time how women choose to marry their fathers. Even Joyce!

He's also changed lots of men by encouraging the wives to separate. If you give your husband unconditional love by staying, he has no incentive to change.

You'll get what you settle for.

It doesn't matter if I sit down & talk with him. He does not communicate back so it's one-sided. Marriages can't work out when one person reaches out while the other shuts out and shuns the other!

The posters here totally understand that a great marriage takes both spouses. In your marriage, you have stated that it's just you, and that you are very unhappy in your marriage.

Dr. Harley recommends wives in your situation separate when complaints go unheeded. A husband who won't listen to your complaints and refuses to change his habits and behavior to accommodate his wife isn't a good marital partner.

Have you decided what you want to do? Do you think you can handle another five years of neglect and control from this man until your children are grown up and out? You are already very unhappy.

Are you ready to separate? You could be quite happy and at peace again once you are separated. Separation is risky but what you have now is a loveless empty marriage with a man who won't listen to your complaints.

I would look into a Plan B. The great thing about it is you stress how much you want a great marriage the whole time you are doing it. He can come home the minute he agrees to your conditions, so don't fret about being seen as the destroyer of the family.

If anybody, including your children, criticize the decision to 'end the marriage', welcome their support with open arms and tell them you want the marriage too. Show them your conditions and encourage them to get your husband on side.

I would make conditions like following this program, maybe buying the online course or your husband getting coached by Steve Harley.

I know currently you'd probably rather avoid 15 hours UA time but I think that would change if you saw your husband being proactive.

Also, this program puts a great deal of emphasis on the husband's efforts so it would no longer be down to you to push jelly uphill.

Plan B would only be possible if I wanted this marriage to get better; and wanted to work things out. For many years I did want to; and although we never separated, I told him things HAD to change. Today, and for quite awhile now, I don't like him or love him so no, I don't wish things to work out. What I wish for is the least pain to my children in a marriage that's been over to me for a long time.

The least pain to your children would be to recover your marriage.

The most pain to your children would to be to continue to limp along in the crippled state you are now in.

Marriage Builders is all about actions. What action are you going to take?

I don't think you know how you'll feel in Plan B until you get there. For one, being separated from someone hurting you will help end your depression and help you to see your husband more objectively (which might swing you more in the "for" OR "against" column on staying with him). For two, the separation itself might scare some sense into your husband and cause him to become a different person.

Maybe this is misguided, but I get the vibe that you're talking a lot more to us about the level of your disappointment in the marriage than you are with him, because I haven't read anything yet about his reaction to a statement like "I feel our marriage cannot survive unless things change". Instead I hear over and over again about how futile it is to work with him because of various reasons, rather than any comment on how he would feel about your marriage ending. Unfortunately, men are often relationship-stupid and if you haven't spelled it out to him that you're ready to clock out, you should not assume he has put that much together on his own. Some may not agree with me, but I do not feel you are being fair or reasonable to him if you have not communicated this to him. Even if he is being a jerk.

Plan B isn't necessarily just about recovering your marriage. It's about protecting your own sanity and if an opportunity to recover your marriage arises, you are emotionally capable of doing so. Plenty of people Plan B with no expectation of recovery (for whatever reason), and some without any willingness to either.

Oh my goodness there is not one day that I wake up and wish I had stayed in my marriage.

I have talked to him about many things, too much to list. I have let him know that I would rather be alone than to dwell in the situation we are in. I have not only stated the way I feel, but why I feel that way.

I do not wish to criticize or attack him. I don't want to argue or fight either. I don't want to bring up past hurts even though his actions never changed. I guess what I'm saying is I don't want to resolve the conflicts that over periods of years tore down this marriage. I just want to lay them aside and not be concerned about or care for them. It's easier, less confrontational, less all the stress that I had for so long. He doesn't respond to communication so I think it's best to give gim what he's worked for all these years: a wife that leaves him alone! But the day I decided to just leave him alone, I stopped having any loving or affectionate feelings toward him AND stopped pretty much all marital relations. Now we're roommates living in the same house with our kids.

It looks like he's getting what he wanted. Too bad that you aren't.

IMHO...guess what breeds uncaring spouses?

Please don't agree to the roommate option. That makes you a willing participant in giving a false impression. Being married but not wanting to be. My in-laws did this. It screws up the kids' ability to understand marital commitment. Please don't do this!!!

Your husband may have his reasons for avoiding you. Or he just doesn't want to be bothered. Push your relationship to the crucible of change, or don't stay. Stand for what you believe in. A relationship of extraordinary care. You are not a maid, a nanny and a cook, are you?