It IS a tool of control. It restrains the selfish destructiveness of the spouses by forcing them to consider each other's feelings with their decisions.

If one spouse is continually doing things that the other spouse does not want them to do, it's going to look very much like you just suggested. That's not a successful model for a marriage, that is abusive behavior.

If you desire a relationship where you get to do things your partner doesn't want you to do, marriage isn't really the answer. Doesn't really matter the reason...if your partner doesn't want you to do it, when is it ever a good idea to do it anyways? When does that ever turn out well?

Yes it can look that way if you do not understand how it works. The key here is that it works 100% both ways. Neither does things that the other is not totally enthusiastic about. This requires both love and honesty.

If you love someone then you will do everything you can to make them happy meaning that you will keep working the POJA until you get a result. It does not mean you sacrifice, it means you negotiate.

If you are honest, then the other party will know that, when you agree, you are truly enthusiastic.

I am married to someone that loves to please and this is difficult for him. He will tend to agree far too readily, then realise he has made a mistake and try to roll back the decision without telling me. It is my job to make it perfectly acceptable for him to change his mind and to make it totally safe to tell me.

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Because the end result should be genuinely appealing to both. That's much less controllIng than strolling off to do stuff that bothers your spouse and telling them Tough - suck it up.

It is controlling for one spouse to go off and leave the other one hanging with no say in the matter. It is not controlling for two people to continue listening to each other until they agree they both like something.

PoJA means raising genuine complaints. If George giving her no say, leaving her alone to do IB whenever he wishes, makes Sue unhappy - she should speak up before she loses any significant love for him. Obviously if she had no real problem with his going to a game there would be no motive to say anything about it.

In marriage you dont do the one option that makes the other person unhappy when there are about a billion alternatives.

PoJA really is ridiculously easy to do. You just stop saying 'I want' to every random things that appeals initially and decide to start looking for even better fits. You are bound to have more fun that way - because you both are happy instead of just one person taking whatever they want.

Indeed.

I would also say that getting angry and disrespectful, IB are the real control tactics - because they are punishments designed to make a spouse feel bad.

Now when an MBer objects to something - like IB - they will never use anything like these types of punishment to control the outcome of the discussion.

They will simply say 'it bothers me' and it is then entirely the decision of the other spouse as to whether they go ahead with the IB or not.


But they aren't punished or controlled if they do. You aren't unpleasant in any way in this program.

The POJA is based on a foundation of good will between the spouses. Dr. Harley hasn't written much on it, but he's talked about it on his radio show periodically. Good will is the "grease" that keeps everything going. Without good will, negotiation and POJA is possible, but good will makes everything work more smoothly.

If one spouse wants to do something and the other spouse isn't enthusiastic, it doesn't happen. The default is to do nothing until both spouses can agree enthusiastically.

But the default position isn't meant to be the end position; it's uncomfortable for the spouse who didn't get to do what he or she wanted. AND it's supposed to a bit uncomfortable for the unenthusiastic spouse, too, because of the good will he or she has for the other. Spouses with good will toward each other want the other guy to "win" but not at one's own expense.

That's why good negotation skills are so important.

A quick little example: My H wanted to purchase an electronic gadget. We had enough electronic gadgets, in my opinion, and I was against the purchase. So he didn't buy one. He'd bring it up periodically, but I was against it. This was before I understand that the default position was not meant to be the end point. I was REAL happy, because, after all, I got my way!

But I was missing the rest of the POJA - to negotiate until you find a solution that makes both spouses happy. I didn't understand about good will then either. We negotiated with each other about this until my H decided to sell off some items he was no longer using. I was enthusiastic about him using those proceeds to purchase the item he wanted, now that some of the other things were gone. It took a little while, but we were both quite pleased with the result of our negotiations.

The POJA isn't meant to control one another; it's meant to create compatibility in marriage. It also helps to build good will over time.

Maybe so, but then one has to ask: who is the least objective person on this thread?

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He shouldn't be doing anything that makes his wife unhappy. If he does, he will have a miserable, incompatible marriage. If watching football with his friend is more important than his marriage, then it will eventually come between them.

However, the goal is to use creativity to find solutions that make both happy. The goal IS NOT to stop one spouse from achieving his desires.


That would be between Sue and George. Remember, the goal here is to do things about which both are enthusiastic. In other words, never do anything to make your spouse unhappy. No reluctant agreements, no sacrifice.



POJA eliminates control. Not agreeing to a plan is not control, but forcing your spouse to accept your plans is control. Forcing your spouse to accept situations that make her unhappy is CONTROL.

Melody,

I have read many of your posts on this site. You have a uncanny ability to write your thoughts in a clear and concise manner. This post is no exception. I have a good understanding of it now.

Thank you!

Thanks! Getting a good clear understanding. My W and I do negotiate and have been getting better at it. It was not always the case in the past years. Always a work in progress I guess!

Agreed on anger and disrespect. Can we add guilting to get one's way?

axlslinger85

Good point. Well taken. I would think over a period of time this would bet exhausting...the continually making one's spouse do things they care not to do.

Exactly. In marriage, our habits have an exponentially cumulative effect. That is why Dr. Harley came up with the POJA, a rule of protection from each others' thoughtless but hurtful behavior.

Well, not even forcing them to do things as much as you yourself doing things they'd rather you not do.

If it bothers them that you do it, and you continue to do it, it's a recipe for disaster.

I'm not aware of anything I do that my W rather I not do. Well, snoring but she will gently ask me to turn over. That is about it. Oh, I chew gum like a cow.

Yeah, it depends what you mean but I'd say guilting would come under disrespect. Anything that implies your outlook or stance is superior to your spouses or 'I'm better than you' is a disrespectful judgement. We've seen lots of reports of disrespectful preaching from various posters on this forum.

There is no "safe" level of risk. If you don't think you are at risk, then you won't do what is necessary to avoid the consequences. Marriage Builders principles are tools for building a great marriage. You have come to a forum that is all about teaching you how to use these tools. We are not here to enable bad practices. Think what you want of the warning; I don't care. If you expect me to tell you that it is okay to sleep on train tracks, then I ask, who is not being objective here?

I fondly remember all those times we would get together as a family. Good times, good memories. From fallouts to people no longer with us has me missing those times and knowing that they will be no more.

What happened at the weekend? How did you manage her activity, and yours?

Yes, superiority is disrepectful.