I haven't noticed "'withering contempt" (yes, it was my phrase) today, and I hope this continues.

I'm trying to get you to stop discussing character. I'm trying to get you to talk more about your behaviour, so that you can focus on changing it.

You mentioned 3 love busters in response to NewEveryDay's question. Can you expand on what you have been doing lately that has kept your wife at the brink of divorce? Start with dishonesty. How has this manifested itself?

Thanks for the response, Remark. This helps us all understand each other.

Sugarcane's post is how I would interpret HappyHeart's comment. See below:


I agree with the suggestion to read HWSW.
Some people instinctively see things as EITHER vs. OR, WRONG vs. RIGHT etc.

That process works in Mathmatics or Physics, or even Chemistry. But like SugarCane and Happy(\/) are saying, it doesn't work in relationships.

You have to give up the thought that your individual solution is CORRECT, and humbly accept that there exist MULTIPLE right answers to life decisions, and they are based on PREFERENCE, not logic. Everyone their own solution. But in a happy marriage, the following is true:

+ Wife's Preference
+ Husband's Preference
+ Respectful Negotiation
+ Brainstorming
= A RIGHT ANSWER

RIGHT ANSWER = All solutions about which both spouses are ENTHUSIASTIC.

I like the suggestion of reading He Wins She Wins also.

Sugarcane,

Related to behavior, I believe one of my faults is putting too much credit in intentions and not enough in the impact of the actions or behavior that the person perceived.
That means, if I say or do something that offends someone, say my wife, it doesn't matter what I "intended". My intentions don't change the fact that she was offended. So, I need to manage my tendency to tendency to be defensive. That tends to be a huge LB to her for me.

Honestly, that is hard for me not to defend myself when accused of something.

Thanks,
Remark

God will judge you based on how much you valued and accepted your wife's preference, opinions, feelings as being PART of a BEST ANSWER, instead of assuming that your way of seeing things is ideal. By considering your wife as just as smart and valuable as you are, you show your care for her.

Have you heard Dr. Harley talk about the ocean vs. mountains perspective? Two people standing back to back, see two different scenes; one the ocean, and one the mountains. Both descriptions comprise reality, but both are completely different.

Caring for each other in the marriage partnership means both coming together, and finding out the best picture to create. It is a landscape comprised of the thoughts, feelings, and preferences of BOTH people. Nothing else is right.

Yes, I've read HW,SW. I've read most of Dr H's books. My problem is remembering all of its sage wisdom and applying it.

And, having the integrity sometimes to follow POJA. In the past I have been guilty of forgetting POJA and doing what I perceived as "right". Not defending it, just being honest.

And we have the workbook. I am working my way through he workbook.

For many years, my New Year's resolution is to match my actions with my words better.

Thanks.
Remark

Remark-

Here is what I was going to say earlier:

You answered HappyHeart with the affirmative, right?

Can you please look at exactly what I suggested, and what actually happened? What do you see?

Yes, I've read HW,SW. I've read most of Dr H's books. My problem is remembering all of its sage wisdom and applying it.

And, having the integrity sometimes to follow POJA. In the past I have been guilty of forgetting POJA and doing what I perceived as "right". Not defending it, just being honest.

And we have the workbook. I am working my way through he workbook.

For many years, my New Year's resolution is to match my actions with my words better.

Thanks.
Remark

You wouldn't attempt to pass your Masters degree by "remembering" all of the wisdom in a textbook. You would be referring to the textbook constantly.

That is what you must do with MB. You must become a Masters-level scholar, referring to the textbooks constantly. Do you read, or re-read, a section from one of Dr H's books every day?

I am glad you have the HWSW workbook. How diligently are you working through it? Do you find that it is helping you with daily issues?

Sugarcane,
OK, Dishonesty. The toilet incident. I fixed the toilet while preaching I understood POJA, and she wanted me to call a plumber to ensure it was done right. I knew I could fix it, had the parts, etc. I did, knowing it was not POJA, but I knew I could fix it and save $$$. Dumb, stupid, dishonest. I will never violate POJA again. But, that is the kind of behavior she considers dishonmest, BECAUSE IT WAS. (I'm not bragging, just beinghonest and owning that failure.)

Did I post about falling asleep while watching movies or TV? I have a POJA agreement to go to bed if I feel I'm might be so tired that I might all asleep. A week ago Friday, I did it again, violating POJA.

I need the discipline, develop the will to get and go to bed before I fall asleep and ruin their enjoyment of a movie while I snore.

That is the kind of thing that compromises my integrity/honesty. Dr H and I have discussed and he point blank asked me if I have the will to get up and go to bed even if it's not what I want to do. Answer, yes. It was a painful lesson, but if it's that or my integrity shot and marriage done, yes, I can do it.

That help?

Thanks,
Remark

Sugarcane,

I listen to MBRadio daily.

I do refer to his books often, but not daily.

I am only in the 2nd part of the workbook, doing it alone. And, of course, it refers back to the HWSW book, so I'm re-reading it.

Will do another chapter of it as I go to bed tonight.

Am committed to forum as long as I have activity.

Thanks,
Remark

DQ,

Yes, I have heard Dr H refer to the mountains and ocean often. Both perspectives are "right".
"Did I see something?"
I don't think I do. What are youreferring to?

Thanks,
Remark

What I was referring to is that from what you are posting, you said that you saw a psychiatrist, when in fact, it looks like you saw a neuro-phychologist for a neuropsych evaluation.

So, it looks to me, like you never saw a psychiatrist.

Did you ever get to see a psychiatrist to have him reassess the meds you are on?

Oh!

Then, I have not seen a psychiatrist. And I started taking a med for depression about 3 weeks ago that I was told takes 5 weeks to notice any effects. I am not taking anything for ADD or ADHD. The nuero-psychological analysis ruled that out. And since it ruled most everything out, I haven't pursued a psychiatrist. Those are hard to find, though, I noticed as I pursued the nueropsychcological evaluation.

Sorry, for my confusion.

Thanks,
Remark

Hi Mark, nice to see you back in the forum. I have a couple thoughts for you.


I think if you really dig deep you'll realize you're not necessarily doing what is "right" so much as what you want to do, then defending the action by justifying it as "right."

In the movie watching example at least, is it really "right or wrong" whether you stay up or go to bed? It seem to me more like two preferences - 1) you want to keep watching the movie (maybe don't realize you're falling asleep) 2) You wife wants to watch it without snoring. It's just 2 preferences.

I also like your saying "no know cares how much you know until they know how much you care" but I think a more appropriate one for your situation is the rhetorical question: "Would you rather be right or be happy?"

"Until they know how much you care" implies you know something they don't (or are right about something--which means they are wrong) and once they know you care about them they'll be open to your superior knowledge. To me that is more fitting for a business relationship where' it's your job to educate someone than it is for a personal relationship where you're now elevating your opinion over theirs.


I wonder if a better goal would be to think harder before you say the words in the first place. Are you agreeing when deep down you don't think it's realistic? Are you promising things you don't have time to do or that you know you really won't want to do when the time comes?

I think a lot of people who are really bad about not doing what they say they'll do have a tendency to commit before they think it through (probably because it feels good to make someone happy by telling them you'll do what they want) but when the time comes, they realize their promise was not realistic, so they back out. If they had refrained from promising in the first place the other person may have been disappointed, but now they're not trustworthy or reliable which really hurts a relationship.

Remark- The reason that I wanted you to see the psychiatrist (MD) is because they deal with these meds all day long. They are more qualified than a GP and you don't have months to lose. A psychiatrist is more aware of other options. Some people can get away with their family doctor prescribing. But I wouldn't risk it any longer.

The fact that you are still feeling mentally slower than your wife , memory is challenged and you are falling asleep could possibly be related to the antidepressant.

Please go to a psychiatrist with your wife and get a medication reassessment. Some ADs numb you out or make you tired. My husband went to a psychiatrist after trying ADs for years, and he was prescribed a completely different type of med that has made a huge difference. He had suffered with anxiety and depression. The PsychMD had a totally different way of classifying my husband's symptoms. The goal is not to get some diagnosis. It is to get a med that will alleviate your symptoms. I wish we would have found a psychiatrist years ago. A lot of time wasted.

So what do you think about what I've said??

The poja solution about going to bed when you feel sleepy isn't working. It's not a workable solution. Choose another one.

No movies until then.

So does that answer - yes, you can do it - apply to all the other things your wife complains about?

Mark,

a neuropsychological analysis cannot rule out ADD/ADHD because no such test exists. Many psychologists like to do tests on concentration to confirm or rule out ADHD but this is not reliable, because people with ADD/ADHD can often concentrate under stress or when the stakes are high or the test is new and therefore interesting. All of these factors are at play in a testing situation. I can tell you from personal experience that I am vers capable to take even tedious tests because I like measuring myself and am very motivated to do well in the relatively short period of time of the test. In the real world, I will search for things that I am holding in my hand and forget that I am calling someone between the moment I call them and the moment they answer the phone, only to discover that somehow a little voice is yelling from the phone.

Your wife would be a far better judge of if you are more disorganized and forgetful than the average person. With ADHD forget testing. The proof of the pudding is in the eating: if you have all areas of your life organized and under control and you are not impulsive and do not drag your feet zo finish tedious projects, you probably don't have it. On the other hand, if you enthousiastically start projects and have trouble following through you may benefit from meds for this.

I do not want to force you into a diagnosis, but this is something we don't notice and that drives other people mad (wasn't there something about not putting things away?). Forgetting derails, not following through etc. So if you have characteristics of this it is worth looking into.

To help with improving behaviour, not to excuse behaviour.

Anywife,

No, I don't think most of this is unreasonable, or impossible for me to do. And, it's not rocket science or anything I can't do. It's a matter of discipline and commitment.

I fully intend to do what I commit to. If dig down deep, I think I am not 100% honest with myself on whether I can do some things at times.

I need to pick a position and stay with it also. I can have the forum tell me one thing and a counselor or pastor tell me another and I can change 'what side of the fence I am on' at times.

For example, I gave up church, bible study group all independent behavior. Then, I can be told by a pastor, actually multiple pastors tell me to go to church and bible study group. And, if she says 'go' or 'I don't care', I can confuse that with POJA. It's not clear to me often.

Another example is my extended family. She is not comfortable with them from a series of events from many years ago. If she were to ask me to never see them again, given all the other issues we have, I'd have a hard time coming to POJA with "OK, I'll never see them again or until you are comfortable."

So, it can really be a struggle, especially if she is very clear that she wants me to move out.

More in a bit,
Thanks,
Remark

Thanks HH, for all that info.

The nuero-psychologist said that in the 8+ hours he was with me, testing me, interviewing me, he saw no signs of distraction or hyperactivity, or whatever they look for in ADD/ADHD. So, that was the basis of his conclusion. Also the fact that the three meds had no effect, I believe was part of his conclusion.

I'm working on my organization skills and general cleanliness. It varies in me. For example, I like a clean kitchen, and common living area, where a visitor or something would see. But, a bedroom I use for my office, or basement is not as important for me to keep clean.

Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer a clean house in total.

I don't have all the areas of my life organized, (the opposite), but I can finish tedious tasks. Sometimes overwhelming tasks keep me from tackling them. Like cleaning our storage room ( a large portion of our basement that's packed pretty tightly. )

More in a bit,
Thanks,
Remark