So does that answer - yes, you can do it - apply to all the other things your wife complains about?

Remark- The reason that I wanted you to see the psychiatrist (MD) is because they deal with these meds all day long. They are more qualified than a GP and you don't have months to lose. A psychiatrist is more aware of other options. Some people can get away with their family doctor prescribing. But I wouldn't risk it any longer.

The fact that you are still feeling mentally slower than your wife , memory is challenged and you are falling asleep could possibly be related to the antidepressant.

Please go to a psychiatrist with your wife and get a medication reassessment. Some ADs numb you out or make you tired. My husband went to a psychiatrist after trying ADs for years, and he was prescribed a completely different type of med that has made a huge difference. He had suffered with anxiety and depression. The PsychMD had a totally different way of classifying my husband's symptoms. The goal is not to get some diagnosis. It is to get a med that will alleviate your symptoms. I wish we would have found a psychiatrist years ago. A lot of time wasted.

So what do you think about what I've said??

The poja solution about going to bed when you feel sleepy isn't working. It's not a workable solution. Choose another one.

No movies until then.

Sugarcane,

First, let me say I set myself up to get e-mails whenever anyone posts, but I received no e-mails today. They were not hung up in my spam folder either. I reviewed your instructions and setup in My Stuff and preferences and they look right. Still no e-mails.

Anyway, to your questions.

Well, I can answer yes to all but perhaps one.

I gave up church, bible study group, and athletic softball with my adult daughters. No problem with that/those.

Though I will say, at times, it seems like she says, go do those things. I also struggle with it being independent behavior if she says, 'go do it'. I also have pastors and counselors saying the opposite of the forum. The forum has said 'don't go to church if you don't have POJA'. These pastors and counselors say 'go to church and bible study' or 'you need a support group'.
So, that is a struggle for me, yet, if we could get along, be a Harley couple, I'd gladly give up church, bible study group, etc. I have permanently retired from the softball without regret.

The one I will struggle with is my extended family. I have an four adult children,2 grandsons, an 89-year old father and 70-yr old stepmother, 2 brothers, 1 sister and many nieces and nephews. To give them up because she is not comfortable and/or because they live 6 hours from us and she doesn't like the drive (and a host of other reasons) will be tough if possible, for me. To be fair, we have driven many more times up there to see them, than they have to come down here to see us. My rationale is many more of them are up there, and that used to me my home, so I don't mind going up there. (Selfish, I know.)

One last showstopper is that a counselor I saw for 4-5 sessions in the past couple of months suggested something. She wanted to come and ask some questions. He said he would only do it if I were there, due to his legal/client obligation to me. My hope is and always has been to repair our marriage. The three of us met. This christian counselor knows all my warts, my issues. He, like Dr Harley has advised me not to move out. When she asked him why he "told me not to move out", he replied "I don't tell my clients what to do. I advise them." His message was clear to me despite the semantics of how he said it, and his response to her conveyed to her that she was dealing with two liars (him and me.)

Anyway, after giving my wife the majority of the session, we spent the last 5-10 minutes and this is what he suggested. He said he saw so much anger in my wife, something in her past is at play. Knowing all my warts and past, he said "You contributed and had you hand on the knife, but she has some issues/hurts from her past involved as well."

So, knowing two things she has referenced from her past, I tried to come along side her and assuage whatever that might be. I asked if the two incidents she had mentioned, but not shared any details on, might still involved with her. My motives were pure, to come along side her and help us. But, it blew up and has become yet another boulder between us. She felt like I was re-opening a wound or something that I took as that, ( a very negative thing ) instead of the coming-along side her I was intending.

Incidentally, I've stopped seeing this counselor, because marriage healing is what I need, and the expense.

Those are the major showstopper hurdles in our marriage, which I interpreted your question to be. The only one I'd have trouble with is giving up my extended family indefinitely (Dad's 89, his days are numbered.)

Thanks,
Remark

Sugarcane,
My wife took issues with this last posting. I am being forthright, honest and introspective.
I'd like to invite her to comment as she feels I'm not accurately representing things, making myself doing better than I am.

Sugarcane,
My wife took issues with this last posting.

For example, I gave up church, bible study group all independent behavior. Then, I can be told by a pastor, actually multiple pastors tell me to go to church and bible study group.

And, if she says 'go' or 'I don't care', I can confuse that with POJA. It's not clear to me often.

Another example is my extended family. She is not comfortable with them from a series of events from many years ago. If she were to ask me to never see them again, given all the other issues we have, I'd have a hard time coming to POJA with "OK, I'll never see them again or until you are comfortable."

Dr H once told a church marriage support group he advises people to stay home from church until they can both agree on the church to attend

The pastor took issue, saying he felt church attendance was more important.

But his flock corrected him - they had done that very thing and HIS was the church they had chosen!





Don't go without her enthusiastic agreement.





See, waiting for her to ASK is a moot point. You know without her asking that they cause lovebank withdrawals. So you should act now.

The sooner they know they have bridges to mend with your wife the sooner it will get done.

I'm not telling you to priotize your marriage over family - maybe it isn't worth it. But don't kid yourself that the choice isn't being made for you just because she hasn't asked.

That means, if I say or do something that offends someone, say my wife, it doesn't matter what I "intended". My intentions don't change the fact that she was offended. So, I need to manage my tendency to tendency to be defensive. That tends to be a huge LB to her for me.

Honestly, that is hard for me not to defend myself when accused of something.

I gave up church, bible study group, and athletic softball with my adult daughters. No problem with that/those.

Though I will say, at times, it seems like she says, go do those things. I also struggle with it being independent behavior if she says, 'go do it'. I also have pastors and counselors saying the opposite of the forum. The forum has said 'don't go to church if you don't have POJA'. These pastors and counselors say 'go to church and Bible study' or 'you need a support group'.

So, that is a struggle for me, yet, if we could get along, be a Harley couple, I'd gladly give up church, bible study group, etc. I have permanently retired from the softball without regret.

The one I will struggle with is my extended family. I have an four adult children,2 grandsons, an 89-year old father and 70-yr old stepmother, 2 brothers, 1 sister and many nieces and nephews. To give them up because she is not comfortable and/or because they live 6 hours from us and she doesn't like the drive (and a host of other reasons) will be tough if possible, for me. To be fair, we have driven many more times up there to see them, than they have to come down here to see us. My rationale is many more of them are up there, and that used to me my home, so I don't mind going up there. (Selfish, I know.)

One last showstopper is that a counselor I saw for 4-5 sessions in the past couple of months suggested something. She wanted to come and ask some questions. He said he would only do it if I were there, due to his legal/client obligation to me. My hope is and always has been to repair our marriage. The three of us met. This christian counselor knows all my warts, my issues. He, like Dr Harley has advised me not to move out. When she asked him why he "told me not to move out", he replied "I don't tell my clients what to do. I advise them." His message was clear to me despite the semantics of how he said it, and his response to her conveyed to her that she was dealing with two liars (him and me.)

Anyway, after giving my wife the majority of the session, we spent the last 5-10 minutes and this is what he suggested. He said he saw so much anger in my wife, something in her past is at play. Knowing all my warts and past, he said "You contributed and had you hand on the knife, but she has some issues/hurts from her past involved as well."

So, knowing two things she has referenced from her past, I tried to come along side her and assuage whatever that might be. I asked if the two incidents she had mentioned, but not shared any details on, might still involved with her. My motives were pure, to come along side her and help us. But, it blew up and has become yet another boulder between us. She felt like I was re-opening a wound or something that I took as that, ( a very negative thing ) instead of the coming-along side her I was intending.

Incidentally, I've stopped seeing this counselor, because marriage healing is what I need, and the expense.

Those are the major showstopper hurdles in our marriage, which I interpreted your question to be. The only one I'd have trouble with is giving up my extended family indefinitely (Dad's 89, his days are numbered.)

Did I post about falling asleep while watching movies or TV? I have a POJA agreement to go to bed if I feel I'm might be so tired that I might all asleep. A week ago Friday, I did it again, violating POJA.

I need the discipline, develop the will to get and go to bed before I fall asleep and ruin their enjoyment of a movie while I snore.

No, you don't need to manage it at all.

You need to drop it altogether.

Remark, we've been over this. Your wife is not "accusing you" of anything. She is telling you how your behaviour hurt her. You need to apologise, and not do it again. There is nothing to defend and there is nothing to discuss.

Falling asleep and snoring through a film is not a difference of perspective: it is an annoying habit, and thus a love buster that needs to stop.

I don't agree that what you POJAd - getting up and going to bed - is unworkable - yet. You didn't do it last Friday. Does that mean that you will never do it?

Are you able to sense when your eyes are closing, or have you no idea that sleep is creeping up on you until someone wakes you up?

If you can feel your head nodding and eyes closing, go to bed at that point. If you don't, you are actually making a decision that your love buster of snoring isn't important enough for you to take action to stop it. Don't be surprised when your wife's irritation with you continues, if you continue your love busters.

Yes, I am making the conscious decision to stay awake and not annoy her, not commit that LB.

First: You know your wife does not want you to do these things. Therefore, don't bring them up again. There would be no need for her to say "go do those things" if you were not indicating that you wanted to do them. In some way, directly or indirectly, you are putting pressure on her to say yes.

You are moping around, or bringing up the subject without directly asking the question, or you are waiting six months and then asking again. (I think your wife mentioned the six month thing in relation to your family.) I don't know what it is, but you are doing something.

When your wife says "go do those things", she is saying "I couldn't give two hoots; I'm done with you, anyway".

Yes, I know. That is some of the confusion I have had and now understand.

If you want to change her attitude so that she is not done with you, you will have to make her fall in love with you. You won't do that by doing things that you know she does not want you to do.

You've got that the wrong way round. If you could gladly give up church, Bible study group etc, you could get along and be a Harley couple.

And by the way: it did not sound as if you had retired from softball "without regret" when you mentioned this at the beginning of this thread. If your read my comments back then, you'll see that I identified your resentment, and your attempt to paint your wife as unreasonable over that very matter.

Let it go. Don't ever mention softball to her or to us again.

I have let it go. No regrets. I don't regret giving up any independent behavior if it helps us become closer. Absolutely. And, I don't bring up softball.

And church, was for the programs. I should admit though, that my son and I did go to church on Easter, because... it was Easter.

Are you bringing this up again on this thread because it has been brought up again at home, with your wife?

Not so much. I do feel a need to go see my parents as they age and that is my former hometown. It's not a burden to me to go up there. It is for her, I understand. No selfish demand from me.

Remark: You have a choice. you can either do what you want with your family and keep your wife permanently alienated from you, or you can drop the subject entirely and concentrate on winning back your wife's love.

Right now, it's her or them. Make your choice.

I'm dismayed to hear anything about this counselor.

Why are you seeing him?

Pastor at church suggested the guy at the same time he suggested our son, who is having issues of lying and stealing. And, he knows that I am/was having trouble getting more than 3-4 hours of sleep a night due to the stress of it all. Same counseling he recommended for our son, h knew a guy he recommended I see. I've stopped seeing him.

I feel like a ping pong ball. I go into counseling telling them all the things I've done to get myself into this position and asking them for accountability not validation. They seem to hear so much self-deprecation that they seem to address that.

I was going to church because they had a Marriage Rebuilding program for 8 weeks and a class on How to Change. The MR is highly acclaimed at our church. Beyond that, I've given up church and catch it on the web when I can.


Is your wife in enthusiastic agreement that you should see him? No. Was she at the beginning? No. Is she still now? No. He offered to marriage counsel us, but she declined. BTW, I talked a lot about the Harley program with him.

I very much doubt she can be enthusiastic today, since the above story tells me that your counsellor is doing what most individual counsellors do: he is destroying what's left of your marriage. He is looking out for YOU, his client, and he is not focused on the marriage. So, now your wife is dealing with TWO people acting against her and her marriage; you and him. I'm surprised she hasn't handed you some clean underwear in a bag and told you to get out.

I want to weep with frustration at reading this, and then batter you around the head.

I cannot understand why, having tried to work with Dr Harley's materials in the past, and having had counselling with him quite recently, and knowing the basics of the online course (even though you cannot get your wife to do it now - you know that it involves identifying CURRENT problems and working through them systematically, and (I presume) having read stories on this forum about the terrible experiences many posters have had with counsellors - mainly due to the fact that they dredge up the past and try to resolve the unresolvable, and they work for the individual and against the marriage -

I cannot understand why, given all that, you ever went to a counsellor in the first place. All you seem to have achieved is that your wife has been hurt even more, this time by a "professional" who ganged up with you against her. She's now being told that she "has so much anger" - meaning that she has an unreasonable and unfathomable amount of anger. Meaning that there is something wrong with her. "You contributed and had you hand on the knife, but she has some issues/hurts from her past involved as well." Meaning that your behaviour over the past 20 years, while not as good as it could have been, is not the reason your marriage is all but over. Meaning that your wife has problems that have made your recovery impossible. Meaning that this is her fault.

How dare you take a course of action that results in your wife being told that, while claiming to be desperate to rebuild this marriage.

OK, I understand. I'm so sorry for hurting her. I was really trying to be understanding and consoling and come along side her with something that I thought, made some sense based on what she has mentioned in the past and what he had said.

I've read your own description of how you treated your wife over these 20 years, (and I've read hers), and your description alone makes my hair stand on end. You had no business getting married to someone that you intended to treat as second to the kids that she was required to stepparent, and you are lucky to be married still today. You wife hasn't kicked you out, and no matter what she says about being done and refusing to participate in rebuilding the marriage; her talking to Dr Harley a few months ago, her posting here a few months ago, her still complaining about your (lack of) actions, and her asking you to post here again this week tells me that she is giving you another chance. Heaven knows why, and for how much longer, but she is giving you another chance to stop hurting her.

And what do you do? You see a counselor who hurts her.

How long did you keep up writing daily to Dr Harley? Did you do it for the full time he asked you to? Yes, and more. I've corresponded with him quite a bit, probably to his annoyance. And, I've talked to him twice. Once, he emailed me and said 'let's talk' suggesting a time and we did. The second time he spoke with me and my wife.

Please understand my wife encouraged me to be honest speak to you on our current show-stopper issues, and discuss more than things like falling asleep during a movie. So, I hit all the big ones. .

I'm glad you recognise that you were not getting marriage healing. Let's hope that not too much damage has been done.

Remark, the only thing you have trouble with is stopping annoying, upsetting and hurting your wife. The only thing you have trouble with is that you keep robbing your own account in her Love Bank

No, you don't need to manage it at all.

You need to drop it altogether.

Remark, we've been over this. Your wife is not "accusing you" of anything. She is telling you how your behaviour hurt her. You need to apologise, and not do it again. There is nothing to defend and there is nothing to discuss.