A while ago I posted about my husband and I trying to make a decision about moving. Basically, I am the breadwinner, I make more than twice as much as DH, and I am losing my job. I have a job offer in another state and DH didn't want to move because we currently live in his hometown by his family and friends.

We negotiated on it for a long time and the options even included staying put and me taking a lower income job thus downgrading our lifestyle. Ultimately, we agreed that I should take the job offer and we would do a 3 year trial period. The job builds my resume for other jobs which will give us more flexibility for choosing a place to live. I told him I didn't want to go unless he was 100% on board and he said that of all of the options, this was the best.

Fast forward to today when I got a call from his friend at the bar saying he was a drunk mess. I was with our son and I was upset with him because lately he has been getting very drunk too often so I called his dad to pick him up and bring him to his house.

DH called me from his dad's and said, "It's time to confess, I have a problem, I have been drinking a lot and hiding it from you. I am depressed because we are moving and this is how I am coping. And I am depressed because you are the breadwinner and I should be."

He blamed it on the move but we have had frustrations in the past due to his drinking. He says it's worse now because he is doing a lot of secret drinking.

I am expecting in about a month. We are supposed to move to the new city in August.

I don't now what to do right now. He says he wants to go to counseling but doesn't want to do 12 steps (basically I think this means he doesn't want to be completely sober, just wants to get it under control, but I am not sure).

He says he needs help dealing with emotions like depression and anxiety and I agree with that.

I guess I just don't know if he should be living here while he gets help for this. Do I change my mind on the job even though I am getting my last paycheck for this job June 1? I feel so list.

"You love the bottle more than you love me!" Husbands who drink too much alcohol is the topic of Dr. Harley's next article. The Harleys give an overview of this topic.


Radio Clip on Alcoholism

MichiganMom,

Your posts remind me very much of the time my wife wrote to Dr. Harley with several questions. His only answer was "Prisca: How is Markos doing with his anger management program? A point we often make is that if angry outbursts are not eliminated from a marriage, no other problems can be solved."

I am sure Dr. Harley would make almost the same point to you: until your husband ELIMINATES his alcohol addiction, you cannot solve problems with him. And addiction is one of the times when Dr. Harley makes an exception to the policy of joint agreement. You cannot negotiate with a drunk or addict and you MUST make independent decisions for your own safety.

I would suggest that you take the job and move without your husband. Let him know that if he wants to move with you, he must become sober and agree that for the rest of his life if he ever has JUST ONE MORE DRINK he must enter an inpatient treatment program, or else he cannot live with you. If he tries to argue that this is too high of a standard, I would end the conversation. Likewise if he tries to blame his addiction on his circumstances or you or whatever else. Don't discuss it with him. Let him make his own internal decision about whether or not he wants to get sober in order to live with you, and if so how he is going to go about it.

Addiction, alcoholism, abuse, and infidelity are issues that are so big that they overwhelm all other marital problems. You cannot even begin to practice the policy of joint agreement or the rest of Marriage Builders until he stops drinking, for life. Until then, you should practice what Marriage Builders recommends for women in your situation, which is to not put up with him drinking.

You can write to Dr. Harley for additional insight. I suspect his recommendations will look similar to this, but he might have better ideas.

Here are two articles Dr. Harley has written about having an alcoholic spouse. Note that Dr. Harley says that if a person ever drinks to the point of drunkenness, he defines them as an alcoholic.

What to do with an alcoholic spouse #1
What to do with an alcoholic spouse #2

DON'T PRACTICE THE POJA WITH AN ALCOHOLIC.

DON'T PRACTICE THE POJA WITH AN ALCOHOLIC. This is an exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement. Don't try to meet his emotional needs, and don't try to apply the rest of this program with him until he ends his use of alcohol. An alcoholic is a black hole; it doesn't matter how much need meeting or POJA'ing you do, you will never fill that black hole, and you will destroy yourself trying.

Dr. Harley often recommends that wives of alcoholics attend an Al-Anon group, which can often be helpful for people with an alcoholic in the family.

Don't let him talk like this to you. Either he decides to rule out alcohol as a means of coping and never have another drink again and never have alcohol in the house again and never go to the bar again, and he figures out how to solve his problems with a sober brain, or he doesn't, in which case I'd suggest you be in the new city starting a new life without him.

Today he says he wants to go for a period, like three months, without drinking, and then he wants to practice being a light to moderate drinker. This just feels like a recipe for a roller coaster to me. He says he wants to try to be sober without counseling and with just my help for now but I feel like I have been trying to help him for years now and it isn't working.

I would give him an option of staying sober for LIFE and going to AA or moving out. The first time he drinks again, his bags should be packed and he should be escorted to the door. You should not allow an alcoholic to set the conditions for your life. Counseling is not helpful with alcoholics, but AA is.

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I would go to him with this proposal. Tell him he has 2 options:

1. never drink again. Go to at least 5 AA meetings a week, starting today. Get a sponsor within one week.

2. move out

Let him make the choice.

Just as an update, he has been sober since this event and is attending online meetings through www.smartrecovery.org He also has a book called, "Kick the Drink ... Easily" that he has been reading slowly. I am still not convinced he is in it for the long haul but as of right now is taking positive steps. It has had a very positive impact on our relationship.

I would like to advice on today's events. I have read the Harley stuff and get it conceptually but sometimes have trouble applying it.

This morning he was playing with our 2 year old and asked for a kiss and the two year old resisted so he basically restrained him while our son tried hard to resist and kissed him. I said, "Don't force it!" and he let our son go and then our son started yelling at him, "Don't force it! Don't force it!"

I dropped our son off at daycare and came home (I'm working from home today and DH was still getting ready for work, he went in late today). So, I apologized for making the demand in front of our son and tried to have a more constructive conversation about it.

DH: You are just crabby today, that's all
Me: Can you give me other examples of me being crabby?
DH: I don't feel like it
Me: The only other examples I can think of that you might be referring to are the check and the coat. (I asked him to sign a check he wanted me to deposit and he wanted me to just forge his signature but I said I wasn't comfortable and it was sitting right there with them pen so if he wanted me to deposit it he could sign it. For the coat, we are constantly disagreeing over how warm of a coat DS needs. I checked the weather this morning and it said the windchill was 28 soI put a winter coat on him and DH insisted it wasn't that cold and he just needed a fleece jacket. I said I wasn't going to argue about the temp, he could check it, which he did, and then didn't say anything else about the coat.)
DH: You were just being bitchy today, I don't want to talk about it, just walk away, I'm not talking to you today.
Me; It's not fair when you shut conversations down. It conveys that you think you are superior in the conversation. I want to talk and you don't so since we are both equally important in this relationship, let's find a middle ground.
DH: You are a typical woman, all women want to do is [censored] about insignificant [censored].
ME: I just want to be heard and to have a discussion.
DH: About [censored] I don't care about. Women are so annoying.
Me: Well, maybe you should have married a man.
DH: Shut your bitchy little mouth.
Me: Walked away and went into my office to work.

I know this was really bad. Please help me apply MB to it. When he said he didn't want to talk, should I have stopped? - he would have never wanted to bring it up again. Then what? He shuts down disagreements a lot, it's his go to thing and then I escalate it out of frustration. Ugh.

That was all you needed to do. There was no need to attempt to have a "constructive conversation" about it.

I think that the way he handled things with our son was wrong. So, I shouldn't address that?

Well, first - that's not what you said in the post I replied to; not at all. I responded to your comment that you apologised, and then tried to have a constructive conversation about it.

Second: Didn't you address that when you told your H not to restrain your son, and he stopped? Why did you need to re-open the topic?

He didn't really stop, he basically just got the forced affection he wanted and then let go. He has done it several times before and it really bugs me. His dad does it to our son, too. I want our son to learn that forcing affection is not allowed. We have a right to maintain boundaries with our bodies. When I have tried to talk to my husband about it before, he blew it off.

I meant that I tried to have a constructive conversation about the forced affection. I basically said, "I think it's very important for our son to learn that forcing affection is not okay. Little boys grow up to be men and just because someone is stronger doesn't mean they can have their way." My husband blew me off again saying that it's the only way he gets hugs and kisses from our son, I wouldn't understand since he readily hugs and kisses me, and he isn't causing any damage so drop it.

I understand now. I didn't get that picture from your first post on the subject. I apologise.

You were, indeed, quite correct to respectfully raise this subject. I happen to agree with you about kids and forced affection, and in fact I had a conversation with a friend recently, making this very complaint. We were saying that the expectation for little girls to put up with this forced affection from complete strangers is disturbing, and unacceptable. We were talking about a one year-old brought to constant tears at a family reunion, at which she was forced to be kissed by lots of men, which she hated. Her mother was blamed for her daughter's anti-social behaviour. I think this is a serious problem for little girls.

I'm telling you that to show that I understand and agree with you, but as you know, that is not the point. The point is not whether you are objectively right or wrong, but that you had a complaint and a perspective that you wanted to raise with your husband, and he was dismissive and disrespectful of your view.

That is not the way that he should respond. He should listen to you and attempt to see things from your point of view (and you his), and you should negotiate a way forward. Should your H seek to get affection from your son, who does not give it readily? If so, how?

I haven't re-read your complete back story. Why wasn't your H receptive to your viewpoint? What role does the "alcohol" in the title of your thread play today?

I think the problem here is that if you are not enthusiastic about something your husband wants to do, then he needs to agree to not do it. You shouldn't have to persuade him it's a bad idea. You need him to commit to following the policy of joint agreement with you, which would prevent this sort of thing.

The "burden of proof" is not on you - you shouldn't have to prove it's a bad idea. The burden of proof is on him - he should tell you why he thinks you would like for him to do this. If he can't convince you, he doesn't do it.

The second that my husband feels in any way threatened or attacked, he shuts down or goes on major offense. He actually went to group therapy with his parents and sister because his sister stopped speaking to him for this. Then his mom had a stroke and they kind of agreed to let bygones be bygones and he stopped attending.

I think my husband would get more willing affection from our son if he didn't force it. And, if he waited for the right timing. He interrupts play to get affection. I am happy to help him create a situation where our son willingly gives him more affection but the forced stuff really bothers me. My FIL waits until he is strapped into his high chair for a meal and then non-stop kisses his head while DS yells "STOPP!" It really bugs me.

As far as how alcohol plays in, right now he is sober. However, I don't know how to word this in a MB appropriate way, I feel like my husband has a sense of entitlement that entitles him to drink however and whenever, force affection, shut down conversations, etc. He has poor empathy and perspective taking skills. The article by doctor Harley that talks about the Star Trek scene where the aliens went into a human body and felt so disconnected from others - this is my husband. He cannot understand or does not appear to care when his behavior negatively impacts someone else.

But, I will also say that it seems to only be an issue with those he is closest to and especially women his age (me, his sister, a female cousin of his). People at work describe him as so kind and caring. I can't tell you how many times I have been told by his work colleagues that I was soooo lucky because my husband is the kindest, happiest guy in the world and has probably never been mad for a second in his life - which is the guy I dated, but not the guy I am married to now. He is definitely like that a lot of time, but if he isn't getting his way or feels even the tiniest bit criticized, [censored] hits the fan.

Wouldn't that be nice.

Why didn't you make him take one or other of these choices, as ML recommended? Why have you allowed him to choose an online option? Have you any idea whether that is as effective as AA attendance?