DQ,

Yes, I know how to respond. Discuss how it I regret it having any negative impact on her and therefore an LB. And, have a resolution a plan, to prevent it in the future, all the while not being defensive as it is being discussed.

Yes, I should have been more prepared with pleasant discussion topics, etc. And, a checklist is a good idea. I already have my LB log. I'll augment it with a checklist.

Thanks,
Remark

HH,

Understood. She is a hot date, in withdrawal. I regret her feeling that way. I certainly didn't feel like I was out with "my annoying Aunt Gladys". And, I should have been more prepared with discussion topics, etc.

Thanks for the encouragement,
Remark

Remark,

First off, it's good news that she is giving you this feedback. She is in conflict, not withdrawal, and that is progress. Dr. Harley often warns "She'll come out swinging." You MUST resist the urge to respond with love busters or she will move to withdrawal. She has given you massively valuable feedback that you can use in order to eliminate many of your love busting habits so that you can increase your balance in her love bank.

Which brings me to my next point -

You are still educating her. You are still telling her you don't see her making effort. You are still trying to tell her what she's doing wrong, Marriage Builders wise. I know this is true because it's the first thing she mentions.

Dr. Harley told you on the radio to STOP doing this. Stop trying to educate her, stop telling her she's not making any effort.

Can you stop doing that, or not? If you feel she's not making any effort, simply keep your mouth shut and don't SAY that you feel she's not making effort. It's as simple as that. I had to do it all the time.

Some other points:

1. It's crucial that you make her emails and her questions top priority over everything else. She needs you to be her partner in life, so if she asks you something, it's important, and she needs you. Put off the work fires. If for some reason you have to put off answering her it's going to be a disaster, so recognize that you have to get back to her ASAP with an answer and some help. This is what teammates/partners do for each other.

2. You need to spend the entire evening with her. Don't escape from her with television. Don't "relax" without her - find something to do that she enjoys that will be relaxing for you both.

3. If you want her to help you with something, like finding your phone, word it this way, always: "How would you feel about listening for my phone while I call it?" Do this for big things and for little things. Accept "no" for an answer. If she says no or looks reluctant, find another solution immediately that doesn't require effort on her part.

4. Engage her in conversation. Don't sit there silently when you take your wife out to dinner. You have four friends of good conversation - bring them in. If you can't get good at doing this ALL THE TIME, your marriage is not going to make it.

When we women become sensitized to this problem, we can feel we are being educated even when nothing is actually said or implied. We can sense disrespect from a mile away. ***EDIT***

You said: Discuss how it I regret it having any negative impact on her and therefore a LB.

Written to her: Wife, thank you for taking the time to share how my behavior impacts you. I'm sorry for being thoughtless. I will ponder this list and take time consider the adjustments I can make to show more care for you.

Also:Dr. Harley categorized your wife's state of mind as "withdrawal". But you keep labeling her that way like it's her whole personality. This is a temporary state of mind for her, prompted by the thoughtless marital environment you provided. If you can create an environment of care for her, she won't have to protect herself by withdrawing.

Taking her out to dinner the other night was a nice action. But checking out after and focusing on time with your son didn't create an environment of care. It sent the message of checking off a box. That is why your wife gets the impression that you are checklisting our advice to the bare minimum. You shut her out by deciding to watch tv. You missed an opportunity to show your son that wife comes first.

Try picturing her attached to you. You can't do ANYTHING without deciding together. So you might think that she wouldn't want to spend more time with you. But you can't assume. In your head, you are labeling her as in withdrawal, when in reality she was being open. Missed opportunity to have some positive time together or show that she is becoming first in your mind.

I would definitely send your wife a written "thank you" for giving you that feedback, and I would also include a "thank you" for the effort she's making for your marriage.

My forum counselors,
My wife and I had this exchange today. It has to do with her discomfort with my siblings.

She suggested that I post it on the forum and get the forum's thoughts on it before sending it to the siblings. I agreed and was going to introduce the topic with the first paragraph. My only intention is to honor her request. How do I do it, forumers? Here's the exchange we had today.

From JD2D:
When you get a chance, would you please explain who said what regarding "feeling tension" when they (Remarks' brother and sister) were down here visiting (or when we were up there, whenever/wherever)?

From Remark:
The term I think they both used was �uncomfortable�. They mentioned not wanting to make things worse for me, based on the experience of those years ago. I believe they both commented simply on not wanting to make things worse for me because I have referenced how I messed up sharing personal conflict info between you and me with them those years ago. That, and the fact that I don�t call them near as much as then, I believe, is the source of that discomfort. My actions of the past 6-8 years of distancing myself from them somewhat is probably also an indicator. Why would it surprise you that they sense not being comfortable coming down here as much, or calling much based the experience of those years ago?

Maybe they sense the �coldness� between the two of us when we see them in DSM. That is, I can picture my brother and his wife, at least, often hugging each other or at least, being warmer to each other than you and I have been for many years.

You were perfectly gracious last summer for our daughter's wedding, etc. You behave very graciously when we�re in DSM. I can only associate their discomfort to my comments of regret of how I shared too much �intimate� conflict info with them those many years ago.

And, I know they feel they have apologized and done everything they know to do to mend the chasm between us and them. Does that help?

From JD2D:
Sadly, no. I'm trying to understand the "uncomfortable" aspect, especially when you follow that up with claiming that I'm always gracious, and they think they've done everything they can to mend things. What are they uncomfortable with/in/for/about? Did they attempt to have an intimate conversation with you? Please explain.

And now it's more confusing because I'm not understanding what they were doing or avoiding doing that would have made things worse for you. This makes me think again that they either tried or would like to have an intimate discussion with you about our situation but are uncomfortable because they can't.

From Remark:
No. I think my laboring how wrong I was to share intimate conflict issues with them all those years ago, and the letter I sent them those years ago is the reference point. I�ve had no intimate discussions like that since with then. I�m 99% sure that�s what they are referring to. They asked what they can do to help? I said "just pray for us".

There have been no attempts at intimate conversation in recent years since the deal 6-8 years ago, whenever that was, no attempts by me nor them. I�m thinking that letter deal back then did more harm than good for everyone, as much time and effort as we put into it. What they seemed to have gotten out of it was that when they talk to me about you, or I talk to them about you, bad things happen. I know that�s way over simplified, because I know they welcome us up there, etc.

From JD2D:
What is the "uncomfortable" aspect for them if I'm being gracious and they feel they've made amends?

And, if they're not attempting to talk to you, what else would they be doing that might make things worse for you?

From Remark:
Talking with me, is what I took their comments to mean. No one wants us to have a worse relationship. And, they know that what Is did talking with them those years ago ended up catastrophic for us all.

From JD2D:
So, if I understand correctly, they are uncomfortable around me (us) because they want to talk to you but can't because doing so would make things worse and they don't want to make things worse.

I'm not understanding because my brother and sister-in-law seem perfectly comfortable around us, yet they never talk with us about our problems. Perhaps they're fine because they actually don't want to, but your family does.

From Remark:
No, I don�t believe they want to talk about our problems. It�s just that the whole debacle back then leaves them feeling leery of coming down here. I don�t think they do because they don�t talk about their problems either just like your brother and sister-in-law don�t talk about theirs.

I think the difference between your bro an sis-in-law versus why Sister and Brother is that because of my talking with them years ago, and the conflict that caused, they aren�t comfortable coming down here, or whatever. Nobody wants to talk the way I did back then, now, just as your (JD2D's) brother and sister-in-law don�t talk about our problems then or now. I screwed everything up talking about it with them back then.

From JD2D:
So they're still uncomfortable coming down here but perfectly fine with us going up there? (re: " I know they welcome us up there.") Like they were for many years prior to your ever talking with them?

From Remark:
That�s an interesting point I don�t know how to answer except that maybe they feel more comfortable hosting than being hosted as a way of just compensation. I mentioned that I had made you come up there all those years in an unbalanced manner, where they (Remark's brother and sister) had not come down here but a few times between the two of them. I said in part, it was because I loved �going back home� and it wasn�t a burden to me as it was you. I was insensitive to your position thinking it was the compromise way to see everyone. I know I mentioned that to sister when I told her a couple of weeks ago and she commented that yes, she regretted that as well.

From JD2D:
Then why would coming down here still make them feel uncomfortable?

From Remark:
I do not know. Yet it is consistent with your not wanting them to come down. Somehow, the 6th sense is working for everyone.

From JD2D:
Perhaps this is just a difference in family dynamics, I don't know, but my family would simply be upfront and ask the other person outright, rather than speculate and assume indefinitely. In your case, I've been dancing this dance with you for, what, more than 8 years? And you're still answering with "I don't know."

I'm tired of this dance, so I'm going to put this to you as bluntly as I can. I very much dislike the consistent message from you that YOU blame ME for the current state of your relationship with your family, whatever that state may be. Admittedly, I'm uncomfortable with your family. But my discomfort isn't the same as theirs because we didn't experience things the same, so don't compare. And my discomfort exists the same whether I'm in STL or DSM or Minneapolis, so that's irrelevant to who travels. In spite of that, I've been as gracious and accommodating as I can be. I've never prevented you from calling or visiting whenever you wanted to, and even encouraged it. The letter you reference that "we" sent them is not something I was even part of. Any message you ever got to cut or distance ties with your family has come from SOMEONE ELSE, not me.

So I'm done with you perpetually rubbing my nose in their discomfort with me, and not even being able to tell me why or what I'm supposed to do about it. We're separating so this all may be a moot point, especially if it ends in divorce. But since you say you want to reconcile eventually, I promise you that I will never get back together with you as long as you continue to hang this cloud over my head. So, I'm going to suggest that, sometime in the near future, you forward this email to them and get a definitive understanding from them once and for all. Because if the answer is, in fact, that *I* am somehow preventing you from having the relationship you want with them, then divorce will ultimately be the only option, because I know how important your family is to you. "


I agreed to send this to my siblings and was considering adding the following final paragraph and intro so as not to 'coldcock' them, even though it was not part of JD2D and my exchange.


From Remark:
Wait a minute, I am not blaming you, JD2D, or anyone else but myself, for their discomfort or your own. I created this debacle of a situation by being way too candid with my comments back then and I accept that responsibility. Because I loved �going back home� and it wasn�t a burden to me as it was you. I was insensitive to your position thinking it was the compromise way to see everyone. I know I mentioned that to Sis when I told her a couple of weeks ago and she commented that yes, she regretted that as well, agreeing it was out of balance.


And I also wanted to add this intro paragraph so as not to 'coldcock' brother and sister:

From Remark:
JD2D, Sister and brother,

First, I am NOT blaming JD2D or anyone but myself our situation. I am the overwhelming majority of the problem. The purpose of this e-mail is not to lay blame. It is to answer some questions and get some closure.

The issue is your comfort coming down here over the last 20 years versus JD2D and me coming up there, and ultimately how JD2D might ever be comfortable with my family.

JD2D and I have been very candid especially of late. We had this exchange today, and this question is more than I can answer. It requires some feedback from you. Please feel free to involve your spouses as you see fit.

The way I threw JD2D "under the bus" those many years ago when I was too open in sharing details of conflicts I had with JD2D, understandably, she feels uncomfortable with you. I was candid with JD2D on the conversations I had with each of you in the past couple of weeks re: she and I separating for the purpose and hope of allowing JD2D to heal. It is my ultimate goal to reconcile and get back together. As I shared our conversations with JD2D, I mentioned how you both, I think, said you weren't comfortable coming down here. That leads to the question of why you are uncomfortable coming down here. That's not an indictment or laying blame, simply statement of several folks' comfort levels.

So, we started the discourse below. Please read it and then, from your perspective, please tell us why you are uncomfortable coming down here to visit us, or so it seems from the number of visits down here versus us trekking up there. And, what/how, if ever, we might all feel more comfortable around each other.

Thanks,
Remark


Please share your thoughts on this.

Markos,
Yes I can keep my mouth shut.
Educate her? OK. I'll review how I'm doing that.
Thanks,

Remark

Just to clarify:
-Your family lives 6 hours away
-for twenty years you have traveled to see them regularly
-for twenty years they have rarely, if ever, come to see you
-your wife was not enthusiastic about always going to them and desired more equal taking-turns situation
-you disregarded her feelings because you liked traveling to see your family, thought it made more sense etc, etc.

I THINK I may have a lot of insight into this situation if I'm understanding it correctly.

Markos,

OK, Yes I will do that.

Remark

DQ,

I understand. So many things I would do differently.
Thanks,
Remark

Coffeegirl,

Yes, that's pretty accurate. To be clear, family 6 hours away, and more family 4 hours north of that. So we would "meet in the middle" (6 hours away) where parents and one sibling lives.

Yes, I regret it.

Thanks,
Remark

Did you literally say/write that to your wife?

I read the whole exchange and I found it very confusing because though you have several guesses, on one hand you keep saying that you don't know why (and they are your siblings). But then you say "why would it surprise you...?" which sounds like you think the reason should be obvious to your wife.

I know people are examining every word you say (to help you) so I don't want to add to your self doubts, but I want to let you know that sentence made me cringe. If I was asking someone "why does someone feel uncomfortable around me" and they said "Why does that surprise you?" I would be 1) crushed that it was not surprising people feel uncomfortable around me and 2) Really irritated that I'm being told it's "surprising" I am confused by it (like I'm an idiot that I don't get their discomfort). I'm sure that's not how you meant it but that is how I would interpret it.

Some of your other musings would have also offended me, though I'm sure you were just trying to be honest, but the "they're affectionate and we're not" would translate in my mind to "you're cold to me and it makes people uncomfortable."

BTW, I too would be very perplexed if they were uncomfortable coming to your home but not having both of you to their home. (If I understand that correctly as part of the situation.) Knowing nothing else I'd would assume they just like being in their own home, which is fine, but really unfair to your wife if she's been willing to leave the comfort of her home to visit them with you, or let you go without her, when they aren't reciprocating.

-----
I'll leave it to the experts to advise you on whether or not to send that email, but to me it seems like maybe TMI about your marital issues. Are you sure your wife is on board with that?

It seems you could just ask them. Maybe something like:

There's something that's been bothering me. You said you're uncomfortable in XYZ situation with us. Can you elaborate? What do you mean by that? What exactly makes you uncomfortable?

Good luck!

If I was your wife I would appreciate if you sent a very no-nonsense email to your family. Simply email them the question.

"You mentioned that you are uncomfortable visiting us. Can you explain why you are uncomfortable?"

It may seem too blunt but all your wife wants to know why they are uncomfortable. It's subtle but your long, wordy email still implies that your wife played some part in their discomfort.

But, frankly, your family was your priority for 20 years. You traveled 6 hours one-way routinely so that they did not have to travel 6 or 10 hours to see you. Now they have been replaced as the priority and they have to travel 6 or 10 hours instead of only 4 hours or staying home. While your wife had to leave her comfort zone for 20 years, all visits were on your family's "home turf" now they have to leave their comfort zone. My point is: the situation is now much less comfortable for them. And so, they are uncomfortable. I'm not blaming you for not considering that maybe they just like it better when they don't have to travel or leave their comfort zone. But, you have mentioned to your wife that they are "not comfortable" despite her efforts and graciousness. If you have experienced your wife being gracious and accommodating then any discomfort is your family's problem now. You can POJA with your wife about whether or not to invite your family to visit but that is the extent of the energy you should spend on the topic.

I think that by writing to your wife that you realize that she has been in the less-comfortable position and you regret that deeply and that you will no longer concern yourself with your family's discomfort you can skip sending any emails to your family and start focusing on your marriage instead.

You should be spending zero time or energy on how your family feels and 100% of your energy on how your wife feels.

I can almost guarantee that if you had expressed that you didn't give a hoot that your family is "uncomfortable" your wife wouldn't need to know exactly how or why they feel the way they do. Seriously, stop talking about your family. I don't think you can do it without screwing up right now. Just focus 100% on your wife.

Yes. I totally agree. And this has been mentioned before on your thread.

I understand that it is your wife who is bringing up the topic. My feeling about it is that because she might be worried that they are insinuating to you that she is the problem.

But the best thing to do about that is to focus on your marriage and ignore the family- especially family who can't figure out how to move forward. Also, it is common for family to give you space while you are working out your problems- especially when there's nothing that they can do to fix them.

I would suggest that you allow your wife to listen on future calls. Any invitations should be replied with I'll need to get back to you on that. Don't ever share your wife's opinion or feelings with your family, just share your joint decisions.

How does that look?

"Thanks for the invitation. We'll have to get back to you on that."
" WE have decided that it won't work out this time."
Really?
"We just won't be able to make that happen this time."

As you learn how to present a united front, she will feel more protected. That is the only compensation that will help her heal from the past damage.

If she really wants a clarification about your inlaws' being "uncomfortable" then you might consider Coffeegirl's simple email approach above. You could offer that as an option. However, having been through the same thing, I would focus on inviting your wife to listen in, learn to stop over-disclosing and learn the key phrases in presenting a united front. The email to clarify might create more drama and some people are avoidant. Others can handle such interactions well. Obviously your family falls into the category of the uncomfortables.

Please email your wife and show her appreciation for giving you the opportunity to discuss this topics and for sharing her feelings. (Did you hear MB radio today?)
Then ask how she would feel about some of these
ideas for handling family relations in the future. State the specific ideas that you would like to suggest.

Remark, JD2D was telling us that part of the problem was these confusing conversations. My DD14 is like this, sometimes it frustrates me so, she makes these pronouncements, like for example, she is too busy for family events with extended family, but doesn't explain the "why" so we can start brainstorming. It is a running joke now that DD14 isn't there because she is doing homework. When we all figure she just doesn't like it.

But if she told me what she didn't like about it, we could try to plan different events she would like. Maybe that's a bad example, because it's probably pretty normal for a teenager to prefer to be home alone to play on her phone than interact with people!


What I got from the conversation is that you think your family is put off from coming to see you by things you told them years ago, and that would be a difficult thing to fix, "They will not come here until we are not having issues." When you all have a ton of conflict right now. So your answer would be to continue to drive up there, because the conflict between you and W would prevent them from coming down to see you, but they would still be plenty comfortable enough for you all to drive up to see them.

I think the answer is more like, they are willing to go to the town that you all meet, but they are not willing to come down and see you all in your town because it is too far. So likewise it is okay for your DW to decide where they live it too far for her to want to go to see family that doesn't ever want to come see you all anyway. Do you understand it makes her feel unprotected that you have this expectation of her? Like you are looking to her to continue to be the easy answer, and she's tired of being convenient for people who don't see her as worth driving down for.

I think she would like it if you extended her the same consideration, that she doesn't find them worth driving to see either, and she doesn't want to feel pressure because of that preference.

I understand your parents are old and can't travel. I think if you asked these siblings to travel and come see you, like at least just asked them, made the effort, she would be more willing when it's time to go see your parents again.

What do you think?

NO NO NO, NED, the subject of that email was not that Remark's family seemed to be unwilling to go down to Remark's town "because it is too far". The subject of JD2D's email was that members of Remark's family appear to have said that they are "uncomfortable", going to his home, and that travelling does not seem to be the cause of this; the cause is some mysterious "something else". JD2D wanted to know what the something else is, because the issue of their unwillingness to travel seems to have been overcome some time ago.

During the email exchange, Remark clarified that it was NOT the distance that they would be required to travel.

Remark's sister stated that she regretted that the family had long been unwilling to travel to see Remark and JD2D. From that statement, it is obvious that she is willing to travel now. However, the lingering comments about their still, in some other way (not related to travel), being "uncomfortable" with going to Remark's and JD2D's home, suggest that there is some problem with being in that home that bothers them, and that is what JD2D has been trying, for 8 years, to find out about.

The family's unwillingness, over 8 years, to say what is the issue that makes them feel uncomfortable in her home, has left JD2D feeling that the issue is that they do not feel comfortable on her turf, and that is because of her. She finds that insulting, since, as Remark readily admits, she has been nothing but gracious to his family when she HAS travelled to their turf recently, such as on the occasion of his daughter's wedding last year: "You were perfectly gracious last summer for our daughter's wedding, etc. You behave very graciously when we�re in DSM."

If the discomfort with being in her home is not that they don't want to travel, and it is not that JD2D is "ungracious" to them, then JD2D concludes that Remark's family want to have a relationship with him that they cannot have when they visit his home.

Either they want to talk about his wife and they cannot do that in her own home where she will always be present, but could do that in THEIR various homes where she might not be present for an hour or two, or might not even visit at all, since she has not done so recently...

...or they don't want to be guests in her home because they do not want to accept her hospitality and thank her for taking care of them,

or they feel she makes them feel uncomfortable in her home,

or something else that JD2D has not guessed at,

but whatever it is, it is not acceptable for Remark's family to hint at, or admit to, this "discomfort" which, it is clear, has something to do with Remark's wife. And if Remark does not get an explicit clarification from them on what causes this discomfort, and if he continues to have conversations with them in which they get away with hinting or causing the impression that there is a problem with his wife, and that her attitude is in some way keeping Remark away from his family because they cannot stand visiting her and she won't visit them...

...if he continues by default to support their contention that she, JD2D is an unreasonable woman who is causing the problem, then JD2D will not even bother thinking about this separation as a breathing space, with a path open to reconciliation. JD2D will file for divorce, because yet again, Remark is siding with people who see her as the problem in their marriage - as an unreasonable shrew - and he is waiting for the first opportunity he gets to go back to his family's embrace. This problem has never been resolved, and will never be resolved, because as JD2D sees from Remark's lack of resolve and lack of a firm stance with his family, Remark really DOES blame her for his not seeing as much of his family as he would like, and really can't see why she can't just grow up and let the whole subject drop, of what they said about her being the problem, years ago. (Remember, after she married him and looked after his four children, whom he put first and second third and fourth, and told her to put up with that because he wasn't going to change.)

NO, NED, this is entirely dangerous to the marriage. JD2D does not want the siblings to go to her home at all. JD2D wants the whole issue of seeing Remark's family to be OFF THE TABLE FOR DISCUSSION for the future. If she changes her mind about that, she will let Remark know. However, she does not want the subject of under what conditions he can see his family discussed for now. Remark's relationship with his family is one of the issues that has led them to the brink of divorce, and seeing them needs to be not discussed at all.

It would be dangerous at this stage, when they are definitely separating over this and other issues, for Remark to ask JD2D whether he can invite the family down, and it would be WORSE for him to "asked these siblings to travel and come see you, like at least just asked them" without POJA-ing asking the question at all, with JD2D. You might not have meant it that way, but your suggestion to "just ask them" did not mention "just asking" JD2D first whether that was what she wanted.

And, as I've said, his even asking her to negotiate this now is too dangerous. In fact, I'm at a loss to understand why, when they are separating any day now over JD2D's complete exhaustion with dealing with Remark, and her disappointment with the marriage, the subject of seeing his family should even be a topic of discussion.

JD2D's email was not about SEEING them. It was about Remark's supporting their negative view of her. She is saying that if he doesn't stop supporting that, right now, he can consider himself divorced.

Remark, the issue that JD2D is getting at, in that email, is that your family is badmouthing her, and you are supporting them in doing that.

When they say "uhmmmm....we're just not comfortable visiting your home", they are saying that they don't want to be around your wife on her turf, because in some way she is the cause of their discomfort.

They are saying a wealth of things in the vague phrase that they are "uncomfortable". That is what is so clever about it; they haven't come out, this time, and said anything that can be interpreted directly as an attack on her.

The thing is, your wife knows well enough what they think of her - even if they have expressed regret at having participated in those emails years ago. She knows that they could not have said the things they said about her being a terrible person, and that you should just ditch her, if they had not meant it at the time. They had looked at all she did for you, and at all the unfavourable conditions under which she married you and gave her all for your kids, and they said that about her. That was breathtakingly vicious of them. The fact that they have since apologised does not take away your wife's feeling of trauma when she has seen them since - which she has done, as we know. She has not refused to travel to see them until recently. She has very generously NOT let her hurt at what they said about her, prevent her from being gracious when she visits them.

So, your wife knows how they feel, and as far as I can tell, she is not interested in winning them round any more (if she ever was). What she cannot tolerate is your condoning their hints that they do not like her, which is what you do when you allow them to get away with that comment about discomfort.

I don't think that, in the past, JD2D would have been happy with your simply taking them to task, by telling them to come out with whatever it was, or shut up. Instead, you should have cut them off entirely until they apologised AND she was comfortable seeing them again, and the moment any hints of "discomfort" with her arose again in your conversations, you should have gone back to the position of not seeing them again until they apologised AND she was comfortable seeing them again.

However, today, JD2D HAS said that she wants you to straighten them out, and if you don't tackle them on the issue, she will divorce you, because if you get back together, this festering boil will still exist, and you'll be back to square one.

Well, I'm suggesting an alternative position for you to take with them. Ask JD2D how she would feel about this: that you will not communicate with them at all unless it is on terms that you and she agree. If that means no communication at all, then so be it. If that means only sending birthday and Christmas cards, then so be it. There could be many degrees, or no degree, of communication, but, as JD2D was hurt by what they said and continue to imply, no level of communication takes place without her enthusiastic agreement.