I'm not trying to read her mind. I'm pointing out that she has made her position clear.

The inlaw relationships can only be repaired after the marital relationship -- if they are ever repaired at all. She doesn't want to visit them, so neither she nor Remark need to go see them.

Their marriage is in crisis. All other relationships need to be put on hold anyway.

Sunnytimes, you are the one causing the distraction.

Yes, that is very true. Agree 100%.

In no way did I mean to imply that Remark should initiate further discussions on this topic, or take any action with the in-laws.

My comments were strictly focused on his conversational LBs with spending many words on off-base replies while not actually hearing her points during the exchange.

This is the root of that whole conversation, nowhere in that long, most recent exchange did she say that she never wants to visit them again. Her need was to clear the cloud of misunderstanding/discomfort up.

[/quote]

The way to clear it up is for him to quit having contact with them until they apologize and stop being rude (expressing "discomfort") and his wife is enthusiastic.

She's not asking "why?" except perhaps rhetorically.

And even if she really wants to know why, there's no way Remark will ever be able to come up with an answer that will satisfy her.

The solution is to end contact until they can treat her right, and she's enthusiastic about seeing them again. She may never be.

Markos, during that looong exchange, Remark states the following: "There have been no attempts at intimate conversation in recent years since the deal 6-8 years ago, whenever that was, no attempts by me nor them. I�m thinking that letter deal back then did more harm than good for everyone, as much time and effort as we put into it."

In reading the zillions of speculative words and no point from his side, I began to wonder how much of these problems HE HIMSELF is perpetuating due to his own circular verbosity on the topic.

This is why I couldn't help but to interject to point out to him that he is talking too much about it -making stuff up, really - and shooting himself in the foot meaninglessly, endlessly.

My focus isn't on the in-law problem per se, just on the communication style that may be causing a lot of his problems.

The in-law problem is certainly for another day when their marriage is restored.

This debate is becoming a needless distraction and needs to stop. Please keep your posts helpful to the OP rather than debating with others. Thank you.

Remark-

Could you please ask your wife if she would be willing to answer these questions for me?


JD2D-

It would be helpful to define the specific goal, problem, and what specific type of input you are seeking by asking Remark to post your email exchange to the forum.

Can you answer these questions below?


1. What concern are you hoping to resolve by seeking clarification from the siblings about their being "uncomfortable"?

2. By asking Remark to get the forum's input, are you looking for:

-Opinions on whether you should send the emails or should seek out the clarification from siblings or not?

-Help/Coaching for Remark?

-MB Advice about how to solve the in-law issue?


Nevermind:
I will post to your wife.

SunnyTimes,

Yes, I can see that when reminded.

Thanks,
Remark (East Liverpool, Oh)

I think �Why are you surprised�?� is disrespectful, but that�s a minor technicality in this situation. I see two huge problems here:

1 By throwing out myriad �possible� reasons it comes across (to me) like you are just grasping until you find the magic answer that gets your wife off your back.

It seems like you�re just casually throwing spaghetti at the wall, hoping something will stick. Your wife is in pain and you�re philosophical. Are you wondering what your wife is going through or just seeing the conversation like some chore you have to get through?

Someone said they were not comfortable around your wife. Either you knew exactly what they meant and won�t give your wife a straight answer now, or you were not even phased enough by that to find out what they meant at the time. Despite all the issues you�ve had with your wife and your family, you let them say that about her unchallenged and then repeated it to her (compounding her feeling of tension with your family).

2. AND THIS IS THE BIG ONE:
I understand about the incident that set this all off. And I understand your W now says she will never go see your family again. But I believe those are just symptoms of the real problem. Wich I think is:

You love your family and you love your wife.
But deep down, your ties to your family are stronger. She knows it. They know it. We know it.

You know you need to put your wife first if you want to keep her. But people are getting older and you may lose your marriage regardless of what you do now.

So now you�re bargaining. You�re attitude seems to be: �If we�re separated, what difference does it make if I see/talk with my family? What if I do finally put my wife first then lose her anyhow? I don�t think I�m willing to take that risk.�

The minute you are separated, what do you do? Call up your family� reinforcing the feeling your wife has that she is the interloper. She is on the outside looking in at the strong bond your family has.

The really sad and ironic part is that if your wife truly came first to you in your heart, that feeling that gnaws at her every time your family comes up probably never would have been there in the first place. Even if you had disclosed negative info about her during a tough time in your marriage. Your family and your wife would know that despite some ill advised venting, you two are a team, and all roads to your heart run through her heart.

Your wife probably would not had any lingering tensions with your family then or now. Consequently, your family probably would not have had problems with your wife. And you probably would have the relationship with your family that you crave today, with your wife�s support.

Now I�ve used way too many words� But what I�m trying to say is that the way to have it all is to stop trying to have it all. If you would choose your wife at some point you probably will no longer have to choose.

Yes, Markos, You are right, we did. End of topic as far as I'm concerned.
Thanks, Remark

Anywife,
1) You're right. I expressed honestly, what I thought they meant and I didn't want to leave her questions, her desire for answers, without answers.

2) Right again. Had I not committred such a stupid blunder, we'd not have to keep running through it over and over again. And had I cut all ties with them 8 years ago, perhaps, all'd be well and we'd be on our way to being a Harley couple.

I'm regret so many of my mistakes.

Remark

Does that mean that you are ready to stop visiting and communicating with your family and focus 100% on your wife? Even when you are separated?

This comment confirms that you still don't understand the problem about the way you communicate that I tried to point out to you earlier today.

Remark, consider whether the blunder that is causing your problems is not as much the indiscreet conversation eight years ago as your avoiding and obfuscating the issue since then.

If you analyze your answers in that email exchange objectively, you will see that you speculate on all kinds of potential hard feelings and reasons therefor - and in doing so fabricate many new ideas on what kind of hard feelings your family has- all out of thin air and with no contribution from them!

So now your wife is gathering hard feelings towards them based on unflattering ideas you've purely invented but they never thought or said.

I get that there was a disruption of some kind - understood.

But judging from your responses in that exchange, you have likely made MOUNTAINS, if not universes, from a molehill because you talk in circles which only invent new problems as you spin them.

Carefully look over the way you refused (whether consciously or unconsciously)to address a simple question (which she kept patiently persisting after many times in a row) and chose instead to deflect with a zillion problem inventing words.

Then you can consider how to communicate succinctly and address a point head-on in future conversations on the many other topics a husband and wife may need to communicate about.

Coffeegirl,

Yes, except for my aging parents who weren't involved in the debacle. Is that reasonable?

Thanks, Remark

Sunny times,
Yes, I understand your point.
I'll work on being succinct and linear.
Thanks for the feedback,
Remark

Welcome!

I wish you the best, Remark.

I will say that now, after I have had the luxury of some time and space from the daily love busters, I can fully appreciate that a separation with a break from the LBs replaced by 15 (or 20!) hours of dating each week could very well restore the love and romance in a couple's feelings towards each other.

I chose not to persist in that path because my marriage had some history yours doesn't have, but also my xH was not willing to stop LBs. But for that, as the distance in time from the painful past increases each day, I very well could have fallen for my xH again had he pursued me nicely with fun and attentive dates, and an MB mindset, after separating.

Therefore, even though JD2D frequently says that she is done, based on the way she provides input and her feedback I sense she has not totally given up yet and would be willing to date you after separation if that occurs, so I am holding out much hope for you two.

Separation is not the end of the world. In fact, it may materially transform both of your lives after the daily LBs are gone, such that in a short time you are looking forward to spending time with each other instead of laboring in the slog you occupy right now.

Ideally things wouldn't come to a separation. But don't put it off so long that you not only break that last straw but you incinerate it.

I know Dr. Harley has you on a timeline for separation if you need it. If that moment comes, don't waste your energy despairing or getting sad about it; instead look at it as a transformative moment in your marriage where you and JD2D get to date each other and build the romantic suspense all over again just like you did when dating.

So you ARE NOT willing to put your wife first. Thanks for clarifying.

SugarCane, thanks for clarifying. I'll be honest I thought I was up to speed on what was going on but I thought it was an "actions, not words," thing.

Remark, I haven't heard much about your day to day efforts, maybe it would help to track what is working and what is not? Are you available for 15+ hours UA time and doing 15 hours FC time? I remember doing light, fun things, like paying soccer in the yard with the kids, to make it easy for my then-H to re-engage. And I got a sitter, I forgot how old your son is?