What is the difference between "love" and "in-love"?

It could be the difference between caring love and romantic love.

What is the context?

Just a conversation I had with my husband yesterday. He said it is impossible to be in love with someone long term because it has to do with brain neurotransmitters such as dopamine and serotonin, which biologically would be impossible to keep up, while the love, or attachment has to do with oxytocin, the cuddle hormone, so this program won't work to make us fall in love, because we already did once, but only brain wash us to think we are in love as we repeat actions while we won't ever be again because we already love each other, but aren't in love. He said he loves me but is not in love with me, and will never be again, but that is normal in a marriage, because the in love phase always fades... I am trying to interpret if there was any meaning in our conversation, or a why he said all that he did.

When a spouse says that they love you, but they are not in love with you, they are comparing their feelings - NOT to when they were in love with you, but to the fact that they are now in love with someone else.

In other words, they have had an affair.

I think you know that, though, because we talked to you about your H's relationship with his ex.

Sounds an awful lot the babble of a person in an affair. They always say it is impossible to be in love with their spouse - that you need someone new to really 'feel' it.

Some use science, some use God, some use fate, others demonise their spouse - justifications all.

The feeling from an A is mind-blowing - that's why they say that married love is a myth and other quite, quite stupid stuff.


Dr H says he has never heard a spouse say 'I love you but am not IN love' unless there is a new point of comparison. If he loved you, and no one else he wouldnt split hairs.

This, by the way, is poppycock, and you should know that, if you have read the articles on this website. The goal of Marriage Builders is to create and sustain romantic love. Dr Harley is one of the rare marriage therapists (in fact, I know of no other) whose goal is to build romance for life.

Most therapists say what your husband says, so it is no surprise that he believes it; what has long been common-sense opinion for most ordinary people has become the "knowledge" spread by the marital therapy community. "Experts" such as Frank Pittman make that claim explicitly in their speeches and their books. Dr Harley says that he once heard Pittman speak about how romantic love is impossible to sustain, and Dr Harley's reaction was to feel sorry for his wife, married to a man who could say that about his feelings for her, and in public.

Dr Harley says he disputed that claim in his own mind long ago, because his parents had a long marriage and were romantically in love, as were Joyce's parents. He set about finding out what couples like them did to maintain the feeling of romantic love, and they (especially the wives) told him things like UA time for 15 hours per week. The 15 hours was not some figure that he made up; when he asked couples about the time they spent together, it turned out that the magic number was 15 hours.

I heard him discuss this on the radio last week, but I can't remember what day that was. (Brainy will probably give us the link!)

Dr Harley's daughter, Dr Chalmers, has written an article about this, explaining how Dr Harley's programme is designed to build and sustain romantic love, but when you read it, you will see that it takes you back to Dr Harley's basic concepts, so you will inevitably need to read those again.

Your husband is not a marriage therapist, and he does not agree with Dr Harley; not about why he must cure his angry outbursts, not about opposite sex friends, and not about romantic love. You need to ask yourself why he fights those principles so hard, but also, examine what his belief tells you about the future of your marriage.

There are couples in romantic love after years together, and one such couple is Dr Harley and Joyce, who have passed their 50th anniversary. I would rather have a marriage like theirs than the one your husband seems to be offering you.

Insist on that for yourself.

To me this is the big

A perfectly reasonable suggestion from AG that they should fall back in love (as anyone can do with anyone they have ever been in love with! Exes included btw)

Yet she gets accused of being delusional and in danger of brainwashing. How lucky she is married to Dr Love (or Dr NotinLove?) so he can straighten out her high expectations. Being in love with your husband? Ridiculous!

Such very, very obvious gaslighting.

Sounds to me like an explanation for why you should have low standards/expectations of him...because he already plans to be lazy and not do much. And maybe also a dig with him trying to say you will not be passionately loved by him. Perhaps he is even telling you this so you may leave and then you can be the bad guy vs him. That's how I would take it after reading your WH's posts.

It means he has a new point of comparison and is in love with someone else.

What about all this would interest you in being with this man? This man has told you he is not in love with you and doesn't believe he ever can be. Do you find that attractive? For me, that would be a deal breaker.

Unfortunately, I heard this EXACT SAME explanation on Christian Talk Radio a couple years ago!
This is a wrong philosophy and that is why Dr. Harleys book His Needs Her Needs has sold so well: People want to be in love with their spouse!
I

While your husband is not wrong about the neurochemicals here, he is shortsighted.

So, if you break the Love Bank model down (or.... recomplicate it - however you want to look at it) then Love is, by definition, a series of positive memories and emotional experiences associated with a person.

Romantic Love is coupled with sexual attraction. And that attraction is bolstered by novelty (new experience). That novelty causes surges of serotonin, dopamine... and epinephrine/norepinephrine.

Added to that, early courtship often involves exciting dates... also triggering the neurochemicals of romantic attraction.


Well, you see, there's the trick.


The very core of this program is centered around maintaining a habit of having mutually enjoyable dates several times a week, every week, without fail.

This isn't a phenomenon that is unique to Dr. Harley's observation - but he has applied it in the best interest of maintaining a romantic marriage.


The phenomenon can be read about under the name "misattribution of arousal."

This scientific article proves Dr. Harley right. The 2-year hypothesis has clearly been thought out by people who are not in love any more.

http://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/01/05/scan.nsq092.full

That report said:

"IMPLICATIONS

Individuals in long-term romantic love showed patterns of neural activity similar to those in early-stage romantic love. These results support theories proposing that there might be mechanisms by which romantic love is sustained in some long-term relationships. For example, the self-expansion model suggests that continued expansion and novel, rewarding events with the beloved may promote increases in romantic love. Novel, rewarding experiences may use dopamine-rich systems (Schultz, 2001; Guitart-Masip et al., 2010) similar to those activated in this study."

The study looked at long-married couples who described themselves as being in romantic love, and found that their brain activity contained the same patterns as those in early-stage romantic love, and also some additional activity. In other words, their feelings were just as romantic, but also greater and deeper than those of the newly in-love couple.

The underlined passages are saying that romantic love is sustained by a couple's regular participation in new, exciting experiences.

That is the purpose of Dr Harley's UA time. Therefore, Dr Harley's programme is based on his own research with couples, and is supported by other, scientific, peer-reviewed studies of couples. Therefore, AlienGirl, you can tell your husband to put his theory in his pipe and smoke it.

The participants were people married for between 10 and 29 years to an opposite sex spouse.

The report also said:

"The present results also have practical applications, suggesting that educational and therapeutic programs for long-term married couples may be able to set higher standards for what is possible in long-term marriages, as well as a greater potential outcome for those considering whether to commit to a long-term relationship. Indeed, research suggests that romantic love is associated with marital satisfaction (a strong predictor of relationship stability) in long-term marriages (Acevedo and Aron, 2009). Results from the present study add to this body of knowledge suggesting that romantic love�associated with engagement, sexual interest and lower attention to alternative partners (Miller, 1997; Maner et al., 2008)�may promote pair-bond maintenance through sustained reward. Thus, marital therapists and family-focused programs may aim to enhance romantic love feelings among couples as a way to strengthen the relationship and provide cognitive resources associated with pleasure and stress alleviation."

Educational and therapeutic programs for long-term married couples may be able to set higher standards for what is possible in long-term marriages

and

marital therapists and family-focused programs may aim to enhance romantic love feelings among couples as a way to strengthen the relationship and provide cognitive resources associated with pleasure and stress alleviation

That is what Dr Harley offers - an educational and therapeutic programme for ALL married couples that sets higher standards for what is possible in...marriage.

romantic love�associated with engagement, sexual interest and lower attention to alternative partners (Miller, 1997; Maner et al., 2008)�may promote pair-bond maintenance through sustained reward

Romantic love, which means being engaged and sexually interested in your spouse, and avoiding engagement and sexual interest with others, makes a marriage last, and it does this by making the marriage eternally rewarding.

AlienGirl - tell you husband to stick his theories where the sun don't shine! Tell him that you want better! Tell him that you want romantic love, for life!

I haven't had time to check all the references in the report that happyheart kindly linked, but I checked this one, because the title is interesting.

Does a long-term relationship kill romantic love?
Authors:
Acevedo, Bianca P., Department of Psychology, Stony Brook University, NY, US,
Aron, Arthur, Department of Psychology, Stony Brook University, NY, US
Review of General Psychology, Vol 13(1), Mar, 2009. pp. 59-65.

It says:

"In this article we argue that romantic love�with intensity, engagement, and sexual interest�can last. Although it does not usually include the obsessional qualities of early stage love, it does not inevitably die out or at best turn into companionate love�a warm, less intense love, devoid of attraction and sexual desire. We suggest that romantic love in its later and early stages can share the qualities of intensity, engagement, and sexual liveliness. We briefly review relevant taxonomies, theoretical perspectives, and research; present new analyses of an existing data set of long-term couples; report a meta-analysis of the association of relationship satisfaction with romantic love in long and short-term relationships; review studies of long-term love's relation to individual well-being; and conclude with implications for theory, research, and applications."

The Acevedo and Aron article (published in a renowned, peer-reviewed, psychology academic journal), examines the premise of the well-known marriage expert - playwright, poet and novelist Oscar Wilde, who had affairs and eventually abandoned his wife during her second pregnancy:

"One should always be in love. That is the reason one should never marry.�Oscar Wilde"

Having reviewed the data of many published studies (in what is known as a meta-analysis), they conclude

Conclusion
Contrary to what has been widely believed, long-term romantic love (with intensity, sexual interest, and engagement, but without the obsessive element common in new relationships), appears to be a real phenomenon that may be enhancing to individuals' lives�positively associated with marital satisfaction, mental health, and overall well-being. These conclusions suggest a dramatic revision of some theories and careful attention to measures of love that include or exclude obsession. In terms of real-world implications, the possibility of intense long-term romantic love sets a standard that couples (and marital therapists) can strive for that is higher than seems to have been generally considered realistic. This could also be distressing for long-term couples who have achieved a kind of contented, even happy�but not intensely romantic�status quo, assuming it is the best anyone can expect. Couples benefit from downward social comparison with other couples and will even distort their evaluation of their own relationship to an objectively unrealistically positive view (Rusbult et al., 2000). Yet, a shocking recognition of possibilities, that a long-term marriage does not necessarily kill the romance in one's relationship, may give some couples the inspiration they need, even if challenging, to make changes that will enhance their relationship quality (and thus general well being).

Could Oscar Wilde be wrong?

Well, I think that what I've read so far shows that Oscar Wilde is wholly wrong. I love his novel A Picture of Dorian Gray, and his play The Importance of Being Earnest, but his marital advice belongs in the toilet.

If your husband would rather aspire to Oscar Wilde than Dr Harley and several other psychologists, I'd say you've got a real problem on your hands, AG.

Is it ok if I post in my husband's thread?

We generally discourage that. Why not post it here first?

I sometimes really felt like slapping him on the face just to make him snap back into 2015. He would be spacing out once in a while in 2010 and he subconsciously or consciously triggers himself and then says things such as I should have never married you, now that I think about it, I never loved you when I married you, or re-tells our history the wrong way, or picks a movie about affairs, and then says that every cheater's OM should be like in the movie (he was a psycho-killer). Oh, thanks, that must make me feel so safe. Then says, instead, your ex was your blue prince, right? Then he keeps on comparing himself to my ex and compares me to his ex. Then he just thinks everything is fine, doesn't really realize what he just said.
We finally went back to okay, lets talk it all all out for one last time, and we went over everything, including resentment he had from when we weren't even boyfriends and only friends. We got it over though after a three hour talk.
We both apologized over each of our mistakes, and he promised to never bring my mistakes again and I did too about his. I keep remembering the separation recommendation, because I don't feel emotionally safe with him. And, if I am separated, I might as well be divorced, so we free each other from our marriage's pains, and then we can re-marry if he wants to, without being forced to it and we start a new marriage. No one talks about an old marriage in a new one, right? But we'll try once more, to live in 2015, and if we can't this time, we both agree to divorce and option of remarriage if we both find that okay, and that was our conclusion yesterday.