I am monitoring his internet activity on his company phone which is what he uses, and his Facebook, porn use and babe qawking on-line activities seemed to have stopped, but there is still the possibility he uses the Google Chrome incognito feature. As far as I know there is no way around that problem. As far as the actual flirting, so far I am having to take his word that he has stopped--though I'm still not sure He gets the difference between appropriate friendly conversation and flirting. I don't know how I can monitor that.

Yes, it is that cornerstone to recovery, but we are not even close to that amount of UA time. When I get some UA time it makes all the difference in how I feel. My H has made enormous progress with plugging that LB hole. But that UA time is a real problem. I'm not sure how to solve the problem.

We are a few years from retirement. He works in a very physically, mentally demanding job. For financial reasons, if we want to retire, quitting or changing jobs at this stage of the game wouldn't be realistic. His hours are long, and he is exhausted. Added to that several chronic health issues, lots of meds, and chronic depression on top of it. Yesterday he was up at 4:00 am, home at 5:00 pm and in bed by 7:00 pm. It doesn't leave much time. We are in the process of trying to figure away to do a partial retirement.

Even so, we could be spending much more time on UA and MB, but due to fatigue his motivation is not there. He likes the results of the MB work we have been doing, our relationship is much improved, but at the same time I think it feels like another thing he has to do... I'm not sure what to do about this.

The job issue can't be left unresolved. Anything that comes before the marriage will come between you.

You won't make it through recovery with that job. Why it sounds like for health reasons alone it is a non starter. The only thing MB priorities above marriage is health and safety.

You need to put the problem on the front burner until it is resolved.

When he was in a long term EA (and likely PA) with another person AT WORK, he found the time to engage in that didn't he? But now he doesn't have the time to engage in UA time with you, his wife? That is not an acceptable response.

We have loads of people tell us their personal reasons for why UA time is difficult. In fact, I don't think I have ever once heard someone say, 15-25 hours? No problem! We have young parents with several kids and financial hardships, who work like dogs to find some free support for their kids and free activities they can do for that UA time. We see people quit jobs, move to completely different countries, and basically rearrange their lives, just to put their marriage first. These are the success stories. Those who just find reasons to not put the marriage first are the ones who are not successful at recovery.

I know it is hard. But if you truly want a fully recovered marriage that is rock solid, making it the #1 priority in your life, and finding that time for UA, is the most important ingredient to getting there.

Do you have spyware on his devices?

Yes, you are right. Real recovery won't be possible without the work circumstances changing. Whether or not he will do that, I don't know. And if he doesn't, I'm not sure what then? Thanks indiegirl for adding to the conversation. I've followed your posts for quite some time-always right on, always insightful.

Have you talked to him about his job? What does he say?

Yes, I do know what you mean. I have read these stories, and I have seen the lengths to which people go to recover the marriage, and they are the success stories.

My FWH is trying to improve, but lacks the drive or maybe the commitment. I'm weary of being the driver of the MB recovery, and have backed off on pushing it which is also part of the problem. I'm losing some resolve because of the snails pace. It seems the least he could do is take more initiative. Most of the time, with some notable exceptions, it has felt like dragging him along. I also have thought to myself, as you expressed, he seemed to have made time for the A. That was easy. This is hard. He doesn't like hard!

I don't have spyware on the phone. I have full access to the phone to check it which I do regularly, but since it's a company owned phone, I don't know if it could be detected. The only other device I know of is his company owned computer at his work.

I have looked into Op Investigate and now have the names of some of those companies to check into on this. Also I have considered a VAR, but again, the only vehicle he has is the company owned vehicle. It's maintained regularly, I'm concerned of the possibility of the maintenance shop perhaps finding it.

I have done a lot of PI work in discovering what was up, but I'm not sure what to do here, I've been thinking on it... If the vehicle and equiptment were ours, I would definately do this.

Yes, we have talked about the job. He is physically burned out on it, and he has asked his supervisor about the possibility of taking a hiatus for parts of the year which are the most demanding, or working just enough to maintain the health ins. for as long as we need company ins. We're not yet sure if they will allow that. We are planning on doing some more POJAing it.

I had a similar unpleasant experience getting my husband on board w MB recovery and not just intellectually receiving the plan but executing it. He too has a demanding job and we are heading towards retirement.


Here's how to get started. Spend one hour each evening Monday through Thursday with IC. Each disclose at least 2 things that happened in your day not related you and your relationship. Here is the most important part of this part of the IC ---talk about how you felt or reacted to these events of your day. Upsets with coworkers, traffic, weather, events enjoyed and so on. Next each express 5 things you found you felt a sense of gratitude towards your spouse. 5 things can seem like a lot. 1 or 2 things are not so hard. But 5 can sometimes be a challenge. Still 5 are good because it causes you to identify things you are grateful for about your spouse through out your day so you are prepared. Gives your whole attitude towards your spouse a boost when you've gone on empty and the relationship is fragile. Affection and SF can easily be part of this time.

I appreciate 4 hour blocks are best route and is advocated here. It seems you are yet gathering yourselves. No you can't drag him along.

Anyway, between Friday evening and Sunday afternoon you can plan
UA time blocks. You both actually need to sit down and make plans. This way you do get 15 to 20 hours.

Evaluate carefully how you get distracted. Distractions are likely a problem. Remove yourselves from environments that more readily cause distractions.

And you both need to learn the birds and the bees of how your husband seemingly 'innocently' attracts females. When I get a chance I'll post a few ways this happens while the wayward is just being themselves and therefore can't identify what they are doing. And it can be difficult fir the betrayed to identify a boundary or precaution.

graceful2b, Your post was a bright spot in my day. Thank you for your thoughtful and practical suggestions for getting in some UA time.

Your timing of the post was just right as I had been thinking about how to add some positives; start focusing on the things we appreciate rather than all of the things which have gone wrong. I like your idea a lot

And when you have the time I would very much like to hear your thoughts on those "birds and bees" which you mentioned...

Glad you liked it LW! I will post the 'birds and bee's' later. At work right now and can't focus or take the time.

Anyway, I think this program of IC etc, gets you started or rebalances after being in a negative loop awhile.

OK Lightwalker.

It was surprising to me to finally 'see' how my husband was relating to others, and I mean opposite sex that could have the potential to encourage or cause rouge behavior in himself and the opposite sex. It was like he was just being himself and under certain conditions women would begin to become engaged with him and be drawn in. So it was hard for him to appreciate how he was causing me to feel unsafe in our relationship to him.

But alas things did go rouge with a woman in a recreational activity he really enjoyed. After the relationship was busted up I joined him in his recreational activity, this happy space of his, and because I no longer wore blinders, I started to 'see' his actions much differently.

He did not 'see' his actions as I mentioned above as a problem. Now I know this is because he, like most is only in his own head space and is only perceiving his own intent while I am observing his actions and the reactions of others to his actions.

Now I see his methods of being 'helpful' in certain conditions can actually be productive 'grooming' behaviors. His intent is not about grooming OW. Whether he admits it or not, he IS receiving admiration and validations by stirring up emotions in women with his attention to them.

There are lots of ways to draw women in at work or participating in a recreational activity. Sometimes all it takes is to show attention with a simple compliment. For example, your husband might notice a woman at work is wearing a new blouse. He might compliment her. This woman is drawn in emotionally. Perhaps she left for work this morning and got dressed up and her husband did not notice her appearance and perhaps he's been too busy and so on, but now your husband, her co-worker is complimenting her and it feels good. She starts drawing comparisons and is now seeking out your husband for compliments.

Or he might by trade be a great problem solver. He finds himself listening to a female revealing her problems. Soon they start revealing problems back and forth. It might lead to complaints towards their spouse and so on. So this can flare things up and go rouge!

Or maybe your husband uses encouragements, helping to build someone up at work who seems to be struggling.

While I write this you might be thinking about your husbands innocent behaviors and you probably know how he tends to operate and what might be the cause of the extra attention he innocently receives at work.

When I finally noted my husbands high risk behavior in front of me I did not become paranoid, but I did start standing my ground and stating I was not enthusiastic. He really can't be involved in recreational activities he is highly motivated and quickly becomes expert, specialist and teacher. It all seems noble and helpful to others but at great risk to our marriage.

So what does your husband do and how does he now start to behave? I tried to help my husband. Coaching can help too. He needs to go to work and see himself married and not open for business that invites trouble. All I've discussed here is IB behavior. He's acting as a renter in your relationship.

Here is a little example of your changed for the better husband:

A woman walks up to him at work and says "I like your shirt, its a great color on you." How does he politely respond so this isn't going down a rouge ego centered IB path? Your husband replies: "Thanks. My wife picked it out for me, she is so thoughtful...." (you see, he made the compliment about you and his love and devotion of you and your marriage)

I hope this helps Lightwalker.

I've been thinking about what you have said here graceful. Your choice of word "grooming" is interesting. I thought of that word once when I was thinking about my husband's flirtation, but then thought to myself I was over-reacting. But that was before I learned of the A. Now as you have pointed out so well, that is an appropriate word. Even if his actions are not conscious "grooming" that is exactly what he has been doing, and it certainly led to the A.

He suffers from chronic depression (I've noted this is the case for many waywards) and he is an extremely emotional man who genuinely cares about others and expresses those concerns. This quality can be endearing. He also has a great sense of humor and is a natural jokester. He says this is what led to the A--just joking around with the OW. I've pointed out to him the danger of these types of behaviors, but I know it is so natural for him, it is a challenge.

And then when I saw his on-line email and FB communications I was shocked to see extreme, intentional behavior that was clearly "grooming." When I think of what he said to several OW it is still so painful--and sometimes so disgusting I still feel sick. He even outed himself once when we were discussing HNHNS about women's high needs for attention and affection when he said he had found how easy it was to impress and get a woman's attention just by giving her some special attention. I so wish I had been the one getting that kind of attention instead other W. I was so starved for that kind of attention for so many years..

I have clearly told him: No more hugging women (he has always been a great hugger!) No more giving flowers or gifts of any kind without my OK, No more private IC with any W.

After reading your post I will discuss with him the danger of compliments. I really hadn't thought to address that because it is always so nice to receive compliments from others, and I like to give them, but with his boundry issues, I know he shouldn't do that. I like your wording for a polite response if he is complimented; bring the wife into the conversation. I saw how missing I was for all of those years in all of his on-line converations. It was as though I didn't even exist (oh, so painful).

After reading MB and talking about reasons for the A, he realized what a high need he has for attention and admiration--that has been his driving need. It was a real eye opener for him, and it is something I really need to try to fill for him now.

Thanks so much for your helpful encouragement. It means so much to me.

Your welcome!

I'm glad you are learning to 'see' and trust your own instincts. Its very easy to almost allow for or enable this behaviors when it seems so much a part of the waywards character. He needs to protect you going forward and you have to be honest with yourself and your husband as far as what you are not enthusiastic about.

Why is he sending candy and flowers to women other then you or his mother?


Your husband needs to let go of the rights he gave himself to flirt + and attract women's attention to him for the sake of your relationship together. He's not single and this hurts you. Its at your expense.

And he needs to stop with holding love from you. At one point I told my husbands it was like he is an anorexic towards meeting my emotional needs. Its even more painful if you have let him know what you need and he agrees and denies it and sends this energy away from your relationship. With anorexia nervosa, the inflicted hurts themselves from excessive weight loss. Withholding or restricting emotional needs in a marriage is projected to the spouse and is extremely painful to the betrayed. This can become a seriously hurtful habit. Talking about your day and feelings about your day and discussing what you are both grateful about towards one another seems to change the energy direction.

These are issues you can't just get over or be allowed to be minimized. Minimization I've learned around here is a sign of an emotional abuser projecting. He needs to get over his idea he has a right to get his intimate emotional needs met outside your marriage. The flirting is not just how he has always been and I hope he isn't asking you to accept it as though you'd be rejecting him for who he is!

This is about learning and growing in how to love. Part of the learning is protecting our spouses and marriage.

The last time my husband tried to give me the get over thing, he said "well you should leave." I didn't get upset I just said "OK" and went about my business cleaning my car out. In about 5 minutes he asked I not leave and apologized. Then we got real and got somewhere.

For us I think my husbands grooming and seeking is like he took a detour off a legitimate soul path due to years worth of his own IB. Its about following God's will and not our own. The other way around causes us to perpetually seek and not get anywhere and lose what is most precious.

Reading this has been very eye opening to me on some of my wife's behaviors. Especially the way it starts.


There are a lot of things that I notice about my wife's behavior now, that I never would have noticed Pre A. Just by the way she is so fun and bubbly, she naturally draws the attention of the OS. Even if it is not her intention.

I don't want to thread jack, so I am going to take this quote from Graceful over to my thread, and break it down to address some of the things I see in my wife's behavior.

[quote=graceful2b]



Why is he sending candy and flowers to women other then you or his mother?


Until I became suspicious about his FB and other internet activities, I didn't know he was doing these kinds of things. At that time I was able to look back over several years worth of on-line conversations and found all of this out. I was shocked to say the least and so upset to know that while I was juggling several jobs (besides taking care of a home and caretaking responsibilities) and going without things I would have liked to have due to some of his impulsive, irresponsible spending habits, He had been buying flowers and gifts for OW!

Yes, he was engaged in many IB's, and I think he realizes it now after reading about LB's. Fortunately, he has not given me the "get over it" line, but has expressed remorse and embarassment over what he has said is his inexcusable behavior. Whether or not his actions will change after this realization, I don't know. I certainly don't trust his words anymore. I will be watching him closely, but will have no way of knowing if the behavior has really ceased.

Your anorexia analogy is a very good one. It hurts to be on the receiving end--being the one being starved to death for attention and affection. He is being much more attentive now, and I am receiving more than just that one perfunctory hug per day. I'm beginning to get more hugs and thoughtful little gifts now and then. Hopefully there are no OW getting any hugs, flowers or gifts now!!

[quote=graceful2b


This is about learning and growing in how to love. Part of the learning is protecting our spouses and marriage.

For us I think my husbands grooming and seeking is like he took a detour off a legitimate soul path due to years worth of his own IB. Its about following God's will and not our own. The other way around causes us to perpetually seek and not get anywhere and lose what is most precious. [/quote]

When my FWH read Dr. H's philosophy on the importance of protecting one's spouse emotionally as well as physically, this got his attention. He'd never thought about protection in that way. He's always felt it his duty as a man to protect me physically. It seemed to bother him when he realized he had not protected me in this other equally important way.

You are so right when you say the grooming and seeking is a result of taking that detour off the "legitimate soul path" which leads to a place of no value. I wish waywards would realize this before they take that detour and cause so much damage.