Day-

Hold Her Hand is correct.

Day-
Have you read Love Busters?

Yes, the book and the articles on the site.

Is there something more specific?

I've read HHH's post several times. I don't disagree with him, I'm not sure if there's something specific you're pointing to or just in general.

It seems like all we have anymore are problems. The advice for most couples to do UA time and make deposits doesn't seem to work for us because the UA time is still riddled with LB's even if no discussion is had. And even if I take all the discussion of our relationship off the table, ignoring any problems that are still unresolved, I still see no future for us.

I read Remark's answer to Indiegirl's question, "what is it specifically about JD2D and marriage to JD2D that you wouldn't like to lose? I don't mean the result of getting time with her - why do you want time with her? What's so great about her?"

And I read people's response to what he posted. I was shocked.

What am I missing? Am I just that far gone, that tainted with this relationship, that I can't value what other women would be thrilled to have in him? Or am I just immune to his sales pitch whereas others are not?

With the exception of affection (aka sex), everything he listed is either from prior to marriage (talking late into the night) or something that he never participated in with me anyway, or something he even criticized me for (intelligence/analytical style.)

I read what he wrote and immediately thought, "NO, thank you! BTDT!" I just don't get it. What did I miss that everyone else was so impressed by?

JDTD,

I had asked him a similar question before, because in his thread, it had not been clear why he wanted to keep the marriage. Just for a live-in nanny/cook/etc? He had not really brought out what about you as an individual was special to him. His first answer to the question had been something along the lines of "to have someone to spend my life with", which misses the mark.

To be a good husband and better person in the future, it is important that he realizes why you are so special to him and what he is about to lose. His answer sounded as if he deep-down does appreciate you as a person. He now has to put the effort in to make you feel special.

We totally understand that you do not melt automatically once he says something nice about you.

And that's my point, he still hasn't. These are simply things "about me."

Remark's response is comparable to me saying, "He's a skilled softball player, has a great golf swing and a low score, is incredibly loyal to his family, will give you the shirt off his back if you just ask, can spot an Iowa State person from across Home Depot and will chat with them for 45 minutes like they're best friends, and will announce 17 times that he's going to bed before he actually does."

Sounds good, doesn't it? It is an accurate description. Unfortunately, they're all things that I either don't care about at all or that have actually been a source of conflict for us.

I just think his first answer was more accurate, and that "somebody" could be anybody.

FWIW: I was impressed because for the first time (that I noticed) he said something specific tailored to you and it sounded like genuine appreciation for you as an individual. And I thought it was kind of tragic that if he's genuinely appreciated you all along it was such a struggle to get that from him. I wondered if he was even telling you those things and if not, would things have gone so far awry if he had been focused on and expressed what he loved about you from the beginning?

However, that doesn't mean I thought that you should hear or read those words after years of frustration and you'd say "it's all good now!" and the skies would open and unicorns would slide down rainbows to graze at your feet while you did a happy dance...

But assuming it was sincere it was good to know he did have genuine individualized appreciation for you. That is a start.


Well, you are in the position to judge what he said in context. It shines a different light on it to know the list of compliments included subjects that he'd DJ'd you on over the years and things he showed no prior interest in.

Have you read Lovebusters recently? Or in the 1990's?

We are all blind to our own lovebusters at first and it seems like you could use a brush up.

It seems like you glossed over many points that I made.

IMHO, your response was a DJ of your husband and was disagreeable.

Here is how you responded to Hold Her Hand when he said to leave the family thing alone:

The discussion is still being had because YOU are engaging him and you have questions that you wanted answered as well. It takes 2 people to have a discussion. Please stop using your husband's potential future resentment as an excuse to point the finger at him.

We have asked you guys to stop all unpleasant conversation. I understand that you feel a need to try to solve problems. But what I learned the hard way, is that unless you BOTH change the way that you interact, you will just end up where your marital dynamic took you before. You BOTH need to change your behaviors. This is not JUST your husband's bad habit. It is yours too.


I posted about this a while back, and I feel like you just ignored my post.

I am impressed that Remark is showing WILLINGNESS. Willingness to post. Willingness to answer. Willingness to try to engage you, even if it isn't just right. Willingness to do the online program. Willingness to learn to follow the POJA. Willingness to respect your feelings.

But, Remark has NO idea exactly how to do all of those things to your liking. And unless you are willing to do the program with him, he will never be able to learn.

If you have any hope at all, of both of you being happy together, I suggest that you dig in and do your part too. Leave the past in the past, and show some goodwill by doing the online program. The only way that you will know if change is possible, is if you are both willing to stop arguing, bury your weapons and act like you did when you were dating, having pleasant time together.

Otherwise, why would you legally separate and not divorce?

I got the impression from JD2D's last posts that Remark acts in a way to let her know he resents not seeing his extended family. That this was why the discussion keeps coming back up.

Day- is that correct?

We need to clarify for him that he needs to stick to the plan - don't see his family, don't talk about it, etc. We need to keep him on point and focused. Hopefully it shouldn't require any more effort on our part to persuade him, so there's not a lot to say other than to remind him.

DQ, thanks again for your diligent time and effort on our behalf. Your user name fits.

Since HHH's and your suggestion, I haven't initiated any discussions with Remark about our relationship. There were a couple short ones about life in general (parenting issues, schedule, etc.), but beyond that, we haven't really interacted much. Until yesterday. The thing is, I actually LIKE not having discussions. When we don't, I find that my depression is virtually non-existent, I'm happy, I'm motivated and energetic. I find I'm able to expend my mental energy on the mundane things of life that I've neglected for so long, instead of spinning my wheels mulling over our insurmountable relationship issues. So your suggestion is not even difficult for me. But while it does make me happier, it does not draw us (Remark and me) closer. I'm simply accepting the circumstances and moving on with life.

I think the problem I have with all of your suggestions boils down to one key statement you (DQ) made: "If you have any hope at all of both of you being happy together..." Well, the bottomline line is that I don't have any hope. I have no reason to believe that anything will be any different in the future. And while you're impressed with his "willingness," it simply doesn't translate into anything in real-life. I've been listening to the sales pitch much longer than you and the forum have. There are no actions to back it up, just a LOT of statements about how he's "trying." If I had a dollar for every time...

Regardless, Remark says he DOES have hope that he can change, so I'm here to offer feedback and perspective only. I've tried to be upfront and honest with my current motives, and I'm sorry if I gave anyone the wrong impression, but I am, admittedly, not very receptive to suggestions about what *I* need to do differently. Most likely, I've already done it successfully/repeatedly in the past to no avail. Now I'm done trying until there's actual/consistent change on Remark's part. There are MANY things the forum has instructed him to do that don't require any action on my part, and he isn't doing them either.

So for information only, yesterday's very brief conversation started with Remark asking me if we were really going thru with his moving out. This struck me as very odd since the condo was already purchased, carpet removed, painting under way, some furniture delivered, etc. I said it was and asked why he asked. He said the forum told him that he should contact Dr. Harley, so I told him to go ahead. I know what Dr. Harley said and nothing has changed from my perspective and can't imagine why he would retract what he told us previously.

Then later in the day, he wanted to talk about the schedule for Father's Day. He had already told me previously that there had been discussion amongst them about the three of them (Remark, older son and younger son) boating and camping overnight, and Remark perhaps taking a day off work and including Monday. I had already said that it sounded like something they would all enjoy (younger son was already excited/talking about it) and gave him my blessing. I haven't camped in years and have no interest in it at this point, so I believe it was understood by all at the time of the discussion that I wouldn't be part of it, especially since I wasn't even included in the conversation.

Nothing new with any of this, so it was again odd to me that he would bring up a topic that was obviously concluded. He told me the forum was telling him -- something, I'm not really sure -- but said he wanted to get MY perspective, to get POJA on their Father's Day plans. I told him he already had my blessing, that I was not going, that the discussion was already had between him and me, and between him and sons. Even if I did have a problem with it, there was no way for me to address it at this point without coming out looking like the family ogre. I am, as the step-mother, the default scapegoat already.

This morning I spent a few minutes catching up on his thread. It seemed pretty clear to me what the forum was advising so I don't know why he brought these topics up to me except that he probably didn't like what the forum was advising and wanted to negotiate something different with me directly. The only other topic that was discussed was the issue of his lending out the life jackets without getting POJA, even though I was literally sitting three feet from him at the time. Though the discussion was brief, he communicated clearly (and angrily) that he feels it's absurd that he should have to talk with me about something like that first. Something big, like a car, he understands, but not something small like a life jacket.

I'm afraid that the entire format of the POJA conflicts with his long-standing, underlying issue of "feeling controlled." And since that's really the basis of the entire Harley program, I don't see what hope I should have.

Yeah - I think you are pretty far gone tbh. It's been a while since you were properly and specifically cared for and neglect numbs the heart like crazy. Whenever a wife in withdrawal hears something sweet like that, she compares the recent words to the recent actions - and if they do not match up she considers it a swindle - or a sales pitch.

I wouldn't have asked him if I didn't think he had an answer in him like that. I've seen plenty of husbands on here try to swindle us and I wouldn't put him in that category at all. I just think he's a wee bit hopeless and out of touch on the 'extraordinary care' front because he has had a belief in unconditional love.

People who believe in unconditional love only look critically at their partner before marriage. That's when they weigh and measure the person, make complaints and decide if they are 'the one'. So far, so good. However once they get married they expect to be taken as they are with little or no effort (forcing you to sacrifice a lot) and also they stop looking at their spouse's pluses and minuses - because the deal has been struck. So that's why all the good points about you he listed are from that time.

He may no longer feel that way - that he looked at you once and got the measure of you then - but he would struggle to talk about current positive experiences because of the situation you are both in now.



Yeah, this.

Look coming out of withdrawal is tough, and on the first few dates - even after lovebusters are eliminated - you are not going to like him or the dates at all.

No one expects you to pluck the warm fuzzies out of thin air.

But people have done it and it does work. IF the lovebusters are eliminated.







A wife who is love with him is so much more valuable to any man than siblings! When he first sacrificed your love for theirs, he didn't know he was doing it - he thought you would still love him anyway.

It isn't rewarding to him at all yet - but it would be if you both get there.

Hmm. On top of everything if you can sense anger and irritation from him you aren't going to feel much for him and are probably looking forward to his departure.

I think that's understandable on your part. I also think it is lamentable he doesn't see how often he shoots himself in the foot. If he had smiled and nodded to you during the discussion it would have given you 'hope' that he would start enjoying PoJA rather than capitulating as you put it.

Thanks for the response, Indie. I agree with what you posted. Not sure what's to be done about any of it though.

Another quick couple of thoughts. Remark recently posted this:
I feel like I'm playing the "telephone game" with him, and he's the person at the opposite end of a very long chain with a completely different story than what it started with.

For example, his maintaining eye contact with me has always been a problem, but not at the extreme peripheral edge like he makes it out to be. For example, on Saturday, sitting at our son's ballgame, we were discussing a few random, pleasant topics, and I had to wait for Remark to finish with his distraction of the moment (picking spackling off his leg) so I could finish my topic. It's like trying to tell someone that you "caught a fish 'this big'" when they aren't looking at you.

Another thing is the "control issue" that he says *I* told him he has. This is really crazy-making for me, because *he* told *me* that he has control issues, that he doesn't like feeling controlled, that he's a grown-up and shouldn't have to ask permission or be told what to do, but that he can't explain why he feels controlled when it's obvious to him in hindsight that I wasn't being controlling. The toilet incident comes immediately to mind.

He's doing the same thing with his current issue of father's day, where he explains his definition of "family," as if the forum hasn't been specific, as if we didn't have a fiasco at Christmas regarding his children, as if he hasn't always prioritized his children over me too, just like his siblings only moreso. Somehow, he's made it "different" and acceptable.

It seems like he detaches from reality and rewrites it in a manner that make his behaviors acceptable and makes ME be the problem. And then he ices the cake with statements like "as difficult as it will be."

His disdain for me is evident in everything he does. Yes, I will be very happy when he's gone from the house. I don't know why he's not even happier about it than I am.

Thanks for clarifying this. Very helpful.

He seems to lie very easily.

For example, when discussing the Father's Day sitch, he said HE feels miserable when you aren't there with him and his kids. And made it out as though he has always felt that way.

I didn't buy it for a second.