Hello, this is my first post here so hopefully I can get some help from you all on this.

I'll give you some history...

Have been with my wife for 21 years (I'm 42, she's 43) - we have 3 children together and she had one when I met her, who I have since adopted (when he was 6) so, essentially we have 4 boys. They are all elite athletes who's activities occupy most of our "family" time. (Which is why I thought it was worth mentioning)
We survived an almost divorce about 5 years ago and have since relocated our family from Chicago to California. When we moved to California we moved into a town that, for the most part, we cannot afford to buy a nice home in. Most houses are upwards of $750,000 for a home that would fit our family. We moved there because my dad (who lives in this town) found us a place to rent temporarily until we figured out where, exactly we wanted to live long term. After our lease was up, the landlord decided to sell the home and we needed to move (even though he had assured us that we could be there "long term". (I had told him I wanted to stay at least 5-6 years.
Since that move we have moved 2 more times since being here, in a string of literal bad luck with rental properties, no ones fault, just bad luck. Also, since the first move our rent has more than doubled, to the point that, although we can afford to live there, it is cutting into our other areas of living expenses. Kids wrestling camps, savings, vacation fund etc.

So the dilemma is this. My wife has since fallen in love with renting in this town, and also fallen in love with the town. Kids have made friends, and so she thinks that leaving would be disastrous for our kids if they have to move away.
I don't want to move far, just about an hour away but the cost of living (housing) is literally cut in half, we can afford to buy a home, AND build our savings again, have money left over etc.
One of her other arguments on staying is that she has built clientele in this town (shes a hair designer) and she doesn't want to drive to work that far. (PS. She only works one full day per week and one half day)

I told her that I think its best we move now, as our one son is graduating HS, the other is a Sophomore (it will affect him the most)and the youngest is heading to a new school this year anyway, as he goes to Junior HS next year.
I can't believe that its come down to this but she said that she IS NOT moving out of this town, and I have told her that we are, and she told me that her and the kids would miss me, and that if I decide to move and a divorce is the outcome that it would be my fault.
I feel like my opinion does not matter to her anymore, she's just telling me that she is not even going to discuss moving away from there, and that if she has to work more to afford paying MORE RENT than that's what she'll do.
It's driving me crazy that she wont even talk about it logically. I told her that she is basing her decision on emotion and not financial logic and the best long term decision for the family down the road. I know it will be tough in the beginning but we survived a move of over 2400 miles, I think we will handle a move of less than an hour.

How do I convince her to talk to me about this in dollars and cents and not just the emotion of loving this town?

Green22,

Read up on this website about improving your marriage. If you meet your Ws needs and don't engage in love busters things may go more smoothly.

You wrote "We survived an almost divorce about 5 years ago" did this have anything to do with you or your W being in an affair?

Yea California is a great place, but you have to at least double your salary to live there, at least back when I was considering it, that's what the natives told me.

Gamma

I sympathise greatly with your reasons for wanting to move. However, I think it is a mistake to get frustrated because you cannot get your wife to think as you do. It is a mistake to want her to think of things in terms of "financial logic", which is only the best decision for the family from your point of view. It is a mistake to characterise her decision as "emotional", since you are implying that her "emotional" decision is less valid or worthwhile that your "financially logical" preference.

The thing is: your financially logical decision won't be the best decision for the family in the long term if forcing it on your wife results in her unhappiness and the eventual breakdown of your marriage.

I'm not trying to tell you that your wife is wrong and that you are correct - that is as destructive as your thinking that your wife is wrong and you are correct.

Your wife's quality of life and love for the area, and the happiness of her children, matter as much to her as your desire to be more financially secure matters to you, and there is no clear-cut right and wrong over those values; just differences of perspectives. What you both need to do is to consider and understand both perspectives, and to try and accommodate both when you make your decision about where to live.

Have you read the articles on this website? You need to read the four guidelines for successful negotiation, and see how Dr Harley explains how to reach a solution to your problems that accommodates both your perspectives and satisfies you both. Also read the article on why the differences between a man and a woman are so valuable in marriage.

it doesn't sound to me as if you have a problem getting your wife to talk about this, so that is good. The problem is that you try to impose your view on her, and she flat-out refuses to consider your perspective. You need to tell her that you would like to find a way to satisfy both your desires, and you would like to talk to her about this, without fighting.

There are many possible solutions to your problem, but you and your wife have to find the one that suits you, by discussing the problem without demands, disrespect or angry outbursts, and by brainstorming with abandon. For example, you could explore what Dr Harley and his wife did when he was offered a job that would involve moving from California to Minnesota; they struck a bargain where she would try Minnesota (which she hated the thought of) for three months at first, and they would keep their house in California (not a problem for you). If at the end of three months Joyce wanted to go back, they would do so, without any arguments. As it turned out, at the end of three months the kids were happy in schools, and they and Joyce had made friends, so they extended the experimental period. in fact, they still today, decades later, live in Minnesota with the proviso that if Joyce ever wants to move back to California, they can. She has never wanted to.

Other solutions could involve indeed letting your wife work more, so that your financial situation is eased, and it could also involve cutting back on expenses involved with your kids' sports - it sounds as if the tail of the kids' lives is wagging the dog - your marriage - which is a grave mistake to be making. It could involve the kids getting part-time jobs, or moving to a smaller place in your current town.

If your wife does not want to buy a house and would rather have the happy life she has than a house, then you need to ask whether you would rather buy a house or lose your marriage.

Please don't come back telling me why none of my suggestions will work; I am not really making suggestions. I am, rather, showing you that if you brainstorm together, you will come up with a long list of options which you can then work through, eliminating those that are out of the question for one or other of you, and exploring the possible ones. The point is that you must find a solution, through negotiating, that works for you and your wife, not for anyone advising you. I tend to support your financial arguments more than I sympathise with your wife's quality of life ones, but how does that help you? You can't impose your view, or anyone else's, on your wife, and neither can you just give in to her view - not if you want to be happy in the long term.

Green, the problem here is that you and your wife don't know how to negotiate decisions that benefit you both. The reason you are at an impasse is because you each came into the "negotiation" with a black and white decision made. When you come into a negotiation with your mind all made up, negotiations are over before you begin. All that is left to do is dictate your opinion to your wife. Oh, and to insult her by telling her she is irrational and without "logic." What an interesting way to sell your ideas!! NOT!

All you are doing is trying to force your will on each other. That approach is very damaging to marriage because it can only produce a win/lose outcome. Win/lose decisions result in resentment and incompatibility. In your case, if you force your decision on your wife and move, she has assured you the marriage will end in divorce.

As Dr Phil might say: how's that working for ya?

The solutution is to learn to negotiate decisions - respectfully - that benefit you both. Put aside your black and white, "my way or the highway" approach and learn to negotiate. I would read through this article and focus especially on Basic Concept #9: Basic Concepts

And read about the love buster, Disrespectful judgments:

here

Thanks to all of you. I would never come back and say that these ideas wont work. I came here for help. I was referred by someone who said to post my thoughts and that people would try and help me. So far so good.
I WILL read more on this site and work on some of my negotiating skills. There is more to the "makes decisions based on emotion" story, that has made me a little bitter when she makes those decisions (IMO, about other things.
Thanks for taking some time to try and help me out.

Green, why wouldn't her decisions about where she lives be influenced by emotion? I can't think of a better way to choose a lifestyle than by considering what makes us happy.

The place where we live should make us happy AND be affordable! You're both right - how sad you aren't blending these ideas.

Has there been any attempt on your part to address her happiness and speak to her about a way of buying a property in a way that makes her happy? Or have you just told her that since she only works one day a week she should be happy to drive further?! Of course she would take that problem and just resolve it by working harder. That would make her happiest.

Rather than focusing on her pesky emotions as a problem, I would be rather alarmed that it is OTHER PEOPLE and not you who she relies on for happiness. That may have a great deal to do with things like this - telling her dollars and cents are more important to you than your wifes happiness.

It's not her emotions that should alarm you, it's this.



It doesn't at all. If she can pin the blame of a divorce on you she will. She doesn't fear it one bit and you haven't escaped the danger of a divorce at all. It's not the fact that she loves the town, it's that she is getting all of her emotional needs met here rather than by you. I actually wonder if that's why you want to move.

Is it the illogical nature of her emotions or the fact these emotions are not tied to you? If you leave town will you become your wife's top priority? Your sons are leaving the nest - when will you come first to her?


If you spend all your time on your sons sporting events, then your wife isn't going to be in love with you. Women need 15 hours undivided attention time to be in love - men can commonly do with less and still be in love.

However I'd say you aren't either. She withdrew first and then you followed. But you are still at the point where you'd like her to respond to you with consideration. She isn't - she ignores you now.

If she was in love with you she'd need her friendships less (really she's quite in danger of an affair) and you more. She wouldn't be dismissive of a divorce and would be quite happy in most places you were. Equally if you were more in love with her you wouldn't insist on moves without considering her feelings.

I think you sometimes find her dismissal of you very frustrating, particularly since she can now comfortably threaten divorce.

But if you were to win her back that problem would disappear.

Hi Green
Welcome.

Recommend Dr Harley's book He Wins She Wins. I see there is a workbook too. The book really helped to change my husbands independent minded decision making after 33 years of marriage. Dr Harley has a great chapter in his book His Needs Her Needs which would help you too in independent behavior and just how easy IB lifestyle can undermine a marriage. I'd say read all you can here and have a good read through these books. You could start listening to dr Harley's radio show too. These revelations can be a bit like Scrooge journey in the story Christmas Carol in you learn the effects of your own shortcomings on others and what the future might hold along with much happier outcomes. Seriously consider this form of education. It's can also help your children gain perspective as they grow into adults.

Only after getting a good dose of the material try out a few very simple and non threatening exercises together. For example there is the exercise where you go to the grocery store together and negotiate what's going in the cart using the skills. You build up your negotiating skills before you consider more controversial subjects that have previously polarized your relationship.

And most important you'll want to spend time with your wife ....15 hours per week meeting one another's important emotional needs. These are affection, intimate conversation, recreational activities, and sexual fulfillment.

You need to rebuild your marriage to stand the test of time.

Being bitter is the result of unilateral decision making. That is what this program seeks to avoid.

I can tell you why you see your wife's perspective as reactive and emotional. You want to impose a change. And a change is always something external. You want to change where your family lives. That's an external maneuver to where you are now located.

People do not have trouble with change. What they do struggle with is the transitions it creates. You only see your solution and that is where your negotiation stands on. We all do this when we see solutions and fail to appreciate that the change will create a set of very human reactions. We all respond to change by going through a transition. We are built that way.

Transition is our internal response to change and this is the valuable input and concerns your wife is presenting to you. You both might have old wounds regarding transitions in the past that is


likely hindering your future and ease to which you can now negotiate changes together.

In your wife's argument she is stating to you her perceived loses that would occur if you moved away from this town. And this is where she shuts down. This is exactly where transition begins. It starts with acknowledging a loss. After the loss it moves to a painful period of not knowing what is in store until you begin again new.

If in the past you attempted to help by not acknowledging your loses or her loses when change has happened MORE change with you will be regarded poorly. And now if you disrespect her for her perception of these potential loses she is telling you she will divorce you in order to protect herself.

I hope this is a good case for you to adopt Dr Harley's concepts and principles. He says marriage is a relationship of extraordinary care.

Green,

Here is an example of a personal situation I've had with an IB my husband imposed in the past prior to the MB illumination.

My husband noted interest down and it might be a good time to re-fi our house. He hits on one of those pop ups on the computer and he goes through their laborith of questions.

Soon I start receiving calls at home asking to speak to him. These calls are aggressive. They are calling him at work too. I manage our business and most of the home finances too. Soon I'm dealing with the fray and ask my husband what's going on. He can't deal with these calls or the work it will take to make a re-fi happen because he is a surgeon and is focused on his patients.

He presents his steal trap logic and simply argues from that perspective. I 'get' his reasoning. He is interested in the outcome. I like the idea too. The trouble is I'm going to be greatly impacted by the process of a re-fi and it's going to create a lot of trouble for me in the form of loses. To make matters worse my own husband at that time was indifferent to me and the loses I would have to endure. I was very compelled to help him 'get it.' This reaction from me further polarized because it's viewed by him as inferior. But if one is only focused on their solution and the other wants their loses understood and accommodated comfortably ...it's like one has jumped to step three while the other is saying "no" back up, we need to start with step one.

Fortunately for me my husband has since learned. We've both learned. IB is a bridge to no where.

Have you found the article on successful negotiation, yet? I could have linked it for you, but I wanted you to do the work and find it for yourself.

What is the story behind the "makes decisions based on emotions"?

Cryptic posts don't really help you. The best thing for you to do is to read the articles, and post your plan to use them, and then post how the negotiations are going. If you post regularly you will get a great deal of help here. Your last post sounds a bit as if you are signing off - which makes me think you didn't hear what you wanted to hear, and you're not interested in MB any more. That would be a shame.