It's just how he feels (shrug). I see no reason to conclude he's lying about that.

JustDaytoDay,

I'm certainly not reading him that way. I remember well that when you guys spoke to Dr. Harley on the radio, he put the main burden on Remark, and told him to quit trying to educate you and straighten you out. We are pretty good at seeing past things, but it's still very helpful for you to come tell us your complaints about him, because he is like many men and has a great deal of difficulty getting it. We'll do our best to help him get it.

I don't believe that he's lying. He does miss her. He's just thinking that her perfect picture would naturally be the same as his, with wife and family all together having fun. He is ignoring her picture because it isn't real to him. It's like being color blind. You don't realize that you are color blind and that you are missing things that others see. Instead it feels like others are seeing what doesn't exist. There is a name for it. It's called mind-blindness. But Dr. Harley has bypassed this problem with a rule. Don't BEHAVE as if your spouse doesn't exist. Once you know that something doesn't work for your spouse, don't do it. Resentme t from not doing something is alwats better than resentment from moving forward acting independently.

Until Remark accepts that his wife's brain has so many magical colors that are REAL, but that he can't envision, then he will continue to be dismissive.

But this CAN change and it does start with a choice to only engage in things they BOTH feel enthusiastic about. It starts with a choice to care for his beautiful wife with all of her colors, even though he doesn't "get" them.

That means that he can't keep doing things that he thinks "should" make her happy. He might miss her, but what's worse is that he is hurting himself and her too by going without his partner.

I need to set the record straight on this Father's Day situation, please.

Remark is not going to make or break this marriage at this point if he goes on a boating/camping trip with the boys. In fact, I'm actually enthusiastic about his doing it because I know that my son would love it, and also I care for my step-son and know that he would enjoy it too.

On the other hand, Remark very well COULD destroy any chance of saving this marriage if he denies himself this opportunity of seeing his kids, especially his older son. I know how much he's stressing over the advice of the forum. In fact, more than 50% of his email to Dr. Harley yesterday was about Father's Day, even after the forum had addressed the topic thoroughly. He's already irritable just with the thought of not seeing him/them, and I can only imagine how angry and bitter he'll be after the deed is done. If history repeats itself (which I'm sure it will because he clearly isn't on-board with the forum opinion,) he'll commit so may LBs as a result that the damage will be irreparable.

There are MORE THAN ENOUGH OTHER ISSUES to deal with, things that make me not even want to be in the same room with him. It will be of no value to me whatsoever if he "stays home." In fact, I'll avoid him like the plague, probably even leave the house myself. Trust me, you don't live here, you don't know what it's like. He's disrespectful to me on a good day. Have that, times ten? No thank you! So I'm more than happy to give over a few days to his kids. Besides, it will be almost like he's moved out.

If you want something to focus on, how about the notebook. In regards to the instructions from the forum, he has never done anything more than acquire the notebook. No LB list, no EA list, nothing.

Your marriage is in crisis. This is not the time for either of you to take trips without the other.

It doesn't matter if you are enthusiastic about it, btw. It would be detrimental to your marriage for him to go off without you. It is possible to be enthusiastic about something that is detrimental to your marriage.

This is not the site where we tell Remark to do everything JustDaytoDay wants no matter what.

We will be happy to try to help both of you achieve compatibility and take care of each other so that you have a good marriage. We would love to help Remark understand how he is being disrespectful and abusive to you, and to help Remark understand that he must stop doing things that put other people ahead of you, and to help the two of you learn to have conversations and a lifestyle that you both enjoy. We would love to help the two of you learn to make win-win decisions together. We won't go along with ideas that don't bring the two of you closer together.

Exactly.

He may feel disappointed. For him to go after planning without you would be reinforcing bad behavior. And it's more bad behavior for him to act irritated about it. He can feel however he feels but he doesn't need to bring you down by behaving badly. He should be pleasant.

And thanks for letting us know about his emotional outbursts.

(((JustDaytoDay)))

I'm sorry that you are seeing on full display Remark's mindset, which isn't very nice.

He seems eager to "get it", but he's just not "getting it" yet.

Please consider, when he gets his head straightened out, just letting this whole hurtful dialog slide into the past and face the joint family activity days together with a "it's a new day today" outlook, relax, and enjoy the family time together.

Please consider giving him a chance by accepting his inclusion of you into the family weekend when he extends the offer to you.

I know you can be a pleasant companion towards him for the outings; please give him a chance to be one towards you.

Ouch.

JD2D, do you think you are "enthusiastic" about him going without you because you will be able to avoid him and his bad behavior?

Why do you say that, JDTD?

"Ouch" sounds as if something is hurtful. Was that hurtful in some way?

Why are you trying to get her to do something she doesn't want to do, Sunnytimes?

The POJA position is that if she doesn't want to do this, then they both do nothing. Remark does not see the kids on his own; she does not see them reluctantly; do nothing under POJA means DO NOTHING.

JDTD is not enthusiastic about this event. Remark should drop it. You should not be trying to persuade her to do something she doesn't want to do, for his sake, or the sake of the kids' feelings. That is sacrifice, and that is partly what got them to where they are now.

We have been urging them to POJA something else she would enjoy.

I was encouraging JD2D to participate in something she would enjoy and spend the day with everyone.

You say he doesn't hear you - how blunt are you being with him though? It's a lot to ask of a wife in withdrawal but can you spell it out to him in a short, direct way? "you know I hate it when you make plans unilaterally with your kids". However if you are getting irritability and sighs from him I can see why its hard for you to do that.

As for the long repetitive conversations - those would disappear if you felt it was safe to make to-the-point complaints. That's the beauty of MB - no need to make speeches justifying yourself. Just say no.

I know this unsafe atmosphere has hurt you a lot - but try not to attribute disrespectful motives to him. Do keep in mind he genuinely has no clue what's going on half the time or how scared you are to be more direct with him.



No the deal breaker situation is that he feels pressured to put others first and you feel pressured to let him. That is the habit that needs to be broken if the marriage is to survive. Your assertation that he will not be able to avoid lovebusters if he doesn't go is NONSENSE. He is a grown man It also shows that you do not feel safe to make complaints or insist on the 'do nothing' default of PoJA.

You both act as though the world will explode if you do nothing. His making plans with others without you is a worrying habit that should be broken. Even when you are against something, you don't want to be put first becuse then it will be YOUR fault. It isn't - be brave.

You are also directly contradicting your earlier post about his putting his kids first. It's not helpful to complain about his choice but then encourage him to go. It's a problem for you and that is OK! He is a big boy.

You are NOT obliged to spend the day with him if he does not go. He can simply miss out because it is not important. That is a perfectly fine solution until you are ready to be around him.

He needs to learn how to not lovebust you. We are not goingto say: "Well IB and making weird plans with your daughter in the role of wife is a LESSER lovebuster than being around JD2D and snapping at her. So go ahead". No, we are going to tell him he cant do ANY lovebusters. A lovebuster away from your presence is lesser in terms of pain for you, but it is still a lovebuster. and he's asking how to stop doing them.

So we told him.

Great job Indie!!
What a great way of spelling that out.

Be tough, Day. I know how difficult it is to create a boundary when the last thing you want is to be the bad guy! But Indie is so right. You both won't explode if you do nothing. Doing nothing motivates us to look for better alternatives.

If you capitulate out of frustration, it sends a very mixed message to Remark. And he gets overwhelmed. It's okay for him to be disappointed. If he starts being unpleasant, walk away for a minute before you get upset too.

I asked Remark yesterday to post an update on his thread. Apparently he didn't have a chance to last night, most likely involved with working on his condo instead. I know he got internet access set up there yesterday morning so that's no longer an excuse for his not posting. Somehow he still managed to shop online for things for the condo, so it seems that was more of an excuse than a reason anyway. Regardless, I'm not sure when or even if he'll get back to the forum, and I could sure stand to hear some perspective.

Remark has been gone from the house for about a week and a half now. He only took some basic items with him while he rehabs the condo, and of course the furniture he's already purchased for it. This past week while his older son was in the country, he took off 3 days from work and he and two sons spent every day together, plus the evenings, working on the condo. Remark and I interacted very little, only business about younger son, or if I happened to be at the house when he came by to pick up some tools. The very clear unspoken message I received was, "I don't even miss you."

On Monday, I had asked him if there was a time I could visit for a bit with older son. He said the three of them were going to go out to dinner later and said he would text me. About an hour and a half later, I hadn't heard from him yet and texted for his status. He replied, "Sorry, forgot about you." Apparently they had already gone.

I managed to tag along with them on Tuesday night. And while it was nice to catch up with my stepson, Remark's involvement/attitude was reminiscent of our Mother's Day night out. I felt like he was tolerating me at best.

Yesterday he stopped by the house for five minutes, and since younger son wasn't home, I asked him if we could talk. We touched on a number of topics.

I explained how I was feeling, and asked him if he thought I should feel like he was still working on the marriage, or if he's decided he likes being away from me and I should just file for divorce. He explained that he has just been very busy, that he wants to finish rehabbing the condo and get the place nice and comfortable like the house, and then he'd have time to relax and focus on the marriage. I asked if that approach was making him feel closer to me and he said it wasn't. I said me neither, just the opposite in fact.

I pointed out that we're both highly at risk for an affair right now, and that his admitted priority being everything other than working on the marriage felt like either he was pushing me in that direction, or that he thinks I'm so pathetic of an individual that no one would want me anyway. I told him that I've already been approached and that it's very hard to resist when all it takes for me to be attracted to someone right now is for them to have a generic conversation with me without my having to beg for eye contact. He concluded the topic by telling me to "go for it" and to drop son off at the condo if I was going out last night.

He mentioned that I had said that I would do the coaching program with him once he moved out. I asked what he was looking for from a coach that would be different than what he's getting from the forum and Dr. Harley. He said he would have weekly conversations and accountability. I pointed out that the message would be the same, that the coach would most likely have told him that, on top of Father's Day, he shouldn't spend the week with his older son either, and that he shouldn't go to see his brother (dentist) for dental work like he is planning in a couple weeks, etc. He commented that the forum's/Dr. Harley's approach to family is radical and he doesn't agree with it, though he acknowledges that the suggestion comes from people with happy marriages as a result. He said it shouldn't matter what he did on his own time since we're separated anyway. He said that if he had to choose between me and his family, he would choose his family. He told me that if he had known I was the type of person that could just cut off family relationships, he never would have married me in the first place (except that he did know that.)

He said a number of times in the conversation that he wants to be a Harley husband. I asked him to explain what that means to him because I don't see his behavior reflecting what I understand the program to be. Most of what he answered was about why he wants a Harley wife. I asked him to tell me what he's doing that the forum has told him to do. He said he couldn't remember what they told him to do, that he would have to go back and reread his thread. I was shocked by this. This is not a drill. This is the eleventh hour and we're about to crash and burn. He needs to be living the part damn near perfectly everyday if he hopes to save this marriage, and he claims he doesn't even know what that is. And instead of spending every waking moment figuring it out, he's set it all aside so he can focus on nesting his condo.

I asked him to explain how he saw us reconciling, given his lack of attention. He said that he thought that if he just got out of my space for while, that I would eventually come around. I don't know what that means and couldn't get an explanation of why that would happen all things considered. I get the impression that he thinks he's so Mr. Wonderful and I'm so pathetic that all he has to do is wait me out and I'll come running. I can't relate it to the Harley approach in any way.

I felt like the conversation was critically important. I feel like I've reached the point where the next move I make will be the point of no return. Admittedly, because of it's import to me, I kept Remark longer than he wanted to stay. He kept telling me he needed to leave, that he had work he needed to do on the condo. I said we needed to come to POJA on where we go from here, that the PoJA says we do nothing until we have enthusiastic agreement. I asked him several times what is the worst thing that would happen if it didn't get done, if he put the condo rehab on hold, and asked if it would have life-altering consequences. He acknowledged that it wouldn't, but he left shortly after anyway without any agreement, and took son with him to work on the condo. Son stayed the night and I'm guessing they'll continue working on it today.

JDTD,

I really don't know why you have these conversations at all. Not one single word of any of this should have been said.

I don't understand what that would have accomplished, other than giving me my "alone" day back. Besides, even if I didn't have the spoken words with him, the unspoken message is clear, and the reality that was expressed would still be true even if it wasn't spoken. The conversation is simply confirming/affirming.

Without any discussion, based upon this unsurprising week and the last 21 years, I would just determine on my own that we don't have the same vision for marriage and begin filing for divorce. It may not be a happy ending, but at least it would be an ending. I find this purgatorial existence miserable even without these conversations.