Fair enough. I just ordered the book.

I have all of Dr. Harley's books [got most free by calling, writing his radio show - they give you a free book if you contact them for advice] and the thing I love about them is that there is no fluff. His ideas are pure precision and appeal very much to a left brainer like me.

I'm going to read the book and I also ordered His Needs/Her Needs. I broached it with my wife last night and she was a little non-committal about this specific program.

But she does want to do some counseling together. Mostly for my control issues, I think. She has some acquaintances - DH/DW team who do marriage counseling and they helped her parents and also her brother/wife thru some very hard times.

They arent psychologists, and I don't think they get into ancient history. Not sure about the history of the marriage - can't imagine that not being the case. I think its some kind of book and Bible Study program that we read thru together and then discuss with them weekly. I guess they are mostly there to hold us accountable to the study and maybe facilitate discussion.

I've more/less agreed to do it with her. It can't hurt, right?

Wrong! traditional marriage counseling, even with the Bible Study approach general takes the "love you spouse as they are" aka "unconditional love" approach which is complete backward to the MB concepts, and can cause a great deal of damage to a marriage. There is a reason people say counseling doesn't work. It's because traditional counseling doesn't work. If they are willing to use the MB program than it might be ok, but going to a traditional marriage counselor while using the MB program on your own is likely to be very confusing and contradictory of each other.

This is great.

But there has to be more than forgiveness. It's vitally important to learn to recognize your own disrespect, and eliminate it.

Not just try to avoid it, but eliminate it.

I'll be honest: when I got here I wouldn't have known disrespect if it bit me in the face. I was telling my wife how to feel all the time, trying to educate her, lecturing her, and worse. And I thought I was treating her perfectly. I was already aware of Marriage Builders when I came here and thought I was already doing it, perfectly, and the problem was how to get my wife to do it so we could be happy. The truth was I was a disrespectful jerk and didn't even know it.

Dr. Harley recommends that you exchange a worksheet each week listing times when you have found each other to be disrespectful. Don't argue about the worksheets, just give your wife that chance to give you this vital feedback, because I suspect you are really blind to it like I was.

Well, Dr. Harley recommends not getting into ancient history. Did you read that excerpt MelodyLane posted?

She can come tell us how wrong we are if she likes.

I did, and it "sounds" like these people more/less follow that principle. Which is why I'm willing to consider doing it for her.

I think DS is one of her top ENs. I asked her what she needs, and the first thing she said was a maid. Money is always an issue, but I told her today that it was important to me to work that out for her.

Actually, it's really common that when a spouse lists domestic support or another non-intimate emotional need near they top, they are in the state of Withdrawal:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3615_state.html

If you read about that, in Withdrawal, a spouse really doesn't want their emotional needs met. So the needs they talk about tend to be the things that require a lot less emotional connection, like Domestic Support, Financial Support, etc.

The truth is that when Dr. Harley sees a couple, regardless of what they put on their Emotional Needs Questionnaires, he focuses on the four intimate emotional needs, because those make the biggest love bank deposits, and typically all or most of those have to be met for a couple to have a romantic relationship.

So by all means try to make some DS love bank deposits, but realize that in order to make enough love bank deposits to meet your wife's needs, you are probably going to have to meet at least two of the intimate emotional needs (typically Conversation and Affection, for women).

Be sure and read this and see the quotes from Dr. Harley about this:

Critical importance

Truthfully, domestic support could be met by somebody you are not married to, and people usually don't fall in love over it!

To get the most bang for your buck and recover your marriage fast, you've got to avoid love bank withdrawals and make regular massive love bank deposits by learning to meet her intimate emotional needs.

Here is the secret to meeting your wife's need for conversation:

The friends and enemies of good conversation.

Dr. Harley lists four friends of good conversation and four enemies of good conversation. (They are also listed in His Needs, Her Needs.) Spend fifteen hours a week in conversation with your wife, practicing the friends, and practicing avoiding the enemies. Re-read that article each day to refresh your memory, and practice until you understand them and are good at them.

That's all there is to it for that emotional need. That's the secret.

Of course, it won't do any good at all if you don't eliminate disrespectful judgments and other love busters. You can't fill a bucket if you are busting holes in it!

How to Meet the Need for Affection

DBack, if you will ELIMINATE disrespectful judgments (and other love busters), and learn to meet your wife's emotional needs for conversation and affection, her feelings toward you will probably do a dramatic turn around. Women in love don't usually want to be single.

DBack, I noticed you mentioned control issues.

I would suggest you go to this section of the site:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5505_qa.html

Reading down the left hand column, there are a whole bunch of Q/A columns from Dr. Harley about abuse and control. I would suggest you read through all of them to learn how demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts form a continuum of abuse and control.

You're going to find that your wife is extra sensitive to disrespectful judgments because of the history of control. So it's going to be extra important that you totally eliminate anything that even hints at disrespect. The ladies on this site can be a great barometer for you on that. If they tell you that something you wrote about your wife or said to her is disrespectful, IT IS, so just agree with them and add it to your list of things to avoid.

On the other hand, because of that sensitivity, you'll probably find that your wife is extra open to admiration love bank deposits.

A disrespectful judgment is a negative value judgment. Avoid these entirely. Examples:
* "You shouldn't leave your laundry on the floor." Avoid - value judgment
* "It bothers me when there's laundry on the floor." Fine - information about your own emotional state. (BTW, you could pick it up yourself! Or teach the kids to do it.)

Admiration is a POSITIVE value judgment. Include lots of these. Example:
* "I love the way you taught the kids to pick up their rooms!"
Be the president of her fan club.

By the way, here is a list of ways I've compiled over the past few years that I or other people I've heard about have been disrespectful to their spouse.

sarcasm
criticism
judgment: stating that their perspective is wrong
"should"
lecturing/attempting to educate
gestures, facial expressions, body language
expressing surprise or shock at an opinion or feeling or belief
saying that something is "obvious" (in other words, you "should" realize this or "should" know it)
disrespecting your spouse's feelings instead of accepting the fact that they do feel that way

guilting, shaming
hyperbolizing
always/never
exaggerated words
scolding
name-calling, labelling
saying or doing something you know your spouse identifies as disrespectful

comparisons: if I had done such a horrible thing as you, I'd be doing more to make up for it

defensiveness

minimizing -- "just" -- you just say that because ... [Translation: I don't have to address your complaint.]
psychoanalyzing your spouse
explaining away your spouse's feelings or complaints

attributing motivations
blaming, fault-finding
expecting them to read your mind


I statements may help, but are not an excuse for a disrespectful judgment:
I feel like (DJ)
I feel unloved.
I feel like you don't love me.

Great list, can I add;

Asking your spouse a question and then interrupting to give her the answer/talking over her as she gives the answer

Answering for your spouse when someone else asks her a question

So I recognize that she is in a state of withdrawal. Her needs for communication and affection are not gone but they're not as acute as they used to be. Right now my need for affection is higher than hers is.

One of her love busters is when I neglect the children. So today I took them all to movie they been wanting to see. Last night we took him to the pool,Wednesday night we played poker with them, and last Sunday took them to the beach.So tonight I'm taking her on a date for some Ua. I want to practice the friends of communication.

So I have a plan to start feeling her love bank again. I even realized when I left work today that I hadn't had a single calorie all day long. maybe I'm too focused?

But there is something else weighing on her that I can't really control. It's just a confluence of exhausting and sad events going on with people around us. It seems each day someone else confides in her regarding a terminal illness or marital problems. Today was a close friend whose husband is verbally abusive.

This is great - she has a strong emotional need for family commitment, which can be a great opportunity if your wife is in withdrawal!!!

(Worked for me.)

The good news is she's talking to you about it. Maybe if the two of you read Love Busters together, and the articles I gave you a link to about abuse and control, she'll see how they can be helped.

Maybe she'll be interested in listening to Dr. Harley's radio show.

BTW, have you listened to the show, yet?

DBack, did you read those articles I linked for you?