JDTD, would you please tell me what you thought the discussion DID accomplish?

It accomplished providing an informed (vs. assumed) understanding of each other's perspective, the same thing accomplished with guideline 2 of the PoJA.

Well, certainly that is one way of looking at it, but reading it, all I saw was that it gave you both the opportunity to love bust each other. This, for example:

"I asked him to explain how he saw us reconciling, given his lack of attention. He said that he thought that if he just got out of my space for while, that I would eventually come around. I don't know what that means and couldn't get an explanation of why that would happen all things considered. I get the impression that he thinks he's so Mr. Wonderful and I'm so pathetic that all he has to do is wait me out and I'll come running. I can't relate it to the Harley approach in any way."

I don't think he could have given you a satisfactory answer to your question. I think your phrase "given his lack of attention" was a set up for failure. I don't think his perspective, "if he just got out of my space for while, that I would eventually come around" has helped you at all, and I don't know what you could have asked that WOULD have helped you. All it seems to have done is make you feel less hopeful than before you had the conversation.

I think you should take advice from Dr Harley, of course, but before you get that advice, I wonder why you don't simply agree on a certain number of times to meet per week, and agree on what to do for those meetings, as you did when you were dating. You could try for 15 hours per week of dates, out of the home, just you and him. Family time is really for him to have with your son, either in or out of the home. Leave that to them.

Other than that, you could simply write down the love busters on a sheet and exchange sheets weekly. Do not have discussions about LBs, or about how your relationship is going. If UA time is spent doing enjoyable things, your feelings should change, over time. If Remark does not respond over time to the things you write down, such as lack of eye contact and not phoning when he said he would, you will stay separated. Perhaps you, JDTD, will decide to divorce after a time if things do not improve much.

I just can't see where the discussion helped you in the slightest. These talks you have sound like unpleasant experiences. Given that you've often had these discussions, with the result of your feeling just as frustrated as before, I should think that avoiding them would be better in future.

I would stop doing that. Leave that to us. Leave the discussion of what he posts to us, too.

This part of the discussion was positively toxic. You should never have raised this subject:

You threatened him with an affair. You should never have done that. It is not acceptable for you to say anything like that under the guise of "exploring each other's perspectives" or radical honesty, or anything else.

You correctly recognise that you are vulnerable, because of how the marriage has been for so long, and the new problem of being separated, and lack of romance from Remark. The solution to that is either to keep your boundaries high, or if you do want to do that, to get divorced as quickly as possible (or to have an affair, which nobody here will recommend).

Your words to him that he is "pushing me in that direction" or that he thinks that you are "so pathetic of an individual that no one would want me anyway", and that "I've already been approached and that it's very hard to resist when all it takes for me to be attracted to someone right now is for them to have a generic conversation with me without my having to beg for eye contact" were threats - nothing less. You were trying to manipulate him into paying you the right kind of attention - or else.

His response, to "go for it", only served to show you that he does not respond to what you want. The response made you feel worse, I suspect. It was a horrible response.

Don't have these discussions. No good comes of them.

I agree, THAT answer hasn't "helped" me. But an answer that reflected the advice he has received repeatedly from the forum and Dr. Harley WOULD have given me hope, an answer that indicated he had a plan, even for the next week, a plan beyond sitting and waiting me out. This is what the forum expects from him, it seems like I should be able to, too.
Because he said he doesn't have time until he finishes the rehab/deco of the condo.
After a time? I think the problem is that I've been at this with him a for a LONG time already. I'm trying to find a reason to postpone any longer. Even son seems perfectly fine with it and he was my holdout for years. I think I'm only doubting myself because the forum seems to see something I don't. Of course, they haven't been dealing with him as long as I have and can step away from him and go back to their own life, whereas it's my life 24/7.
That sounds like I should keep my head above the water because seeing the sharks underneath the water's surface is unpleasant. Sorry, unpleasant or not, I will always prefer knowing the truth.

I guess I'm confused by this because if the tables were turned, I would WANT Remark to say this to me. I would want to know that things were that dangerously precarious, that people were actually knocking on his door with no instigation on his part, and that he was struggling with a reason to resist, so I could do something about it and give him a reason. If I were him, claiming to want to save the marriage, I wouldn't advise him not to tell me because I've got a condo to focus on right now.

Actually, I'm fine with him saying what he said. What is wrong with honesty? There was no name-calling or angry outbursts, just honest and open sharing. I WOULD RATHER KNOW.

Since the conversation is something I chose to have and therefore there must be a reason why, my bigger interest regarding feedback is how the forum reconciles what Remark posts to his thread with what he says to me and does IRL.

Okay, I understand. I didn't realise that, so I went off on the wrong tack.

No. You don't really need to have these long, heavy, unpleasant conversations.

Per your own report the... weeek (?) you spent not having them was less stressful for you.

Remark's behavior is enough on it's own.

I'm not saying you shouldn't complain, but keep it brief and to the point, then move on.


Here's your unnecessary affirmation; your marriage is in crisis, and your husband's reaction to separation was to put tons of time, money, focus, and energy into his own comfortable little condo. That doesn't demonstrate care for you or the marriage.

Yet, we are talking about a man with a 20 year history of exactly that habit. It isn't going to correct in a week. Or a month.

Where your focus is, is keeping interactions pleasant, and making brief, to the point complaints- likely in writing, once weekly.

The ball is then in his court to make course corrections.

If at any time, he becomes unpleasant, redirect. If redirection fails, end the meeting.

You set the bar, and set it high. It's up to him to rise to meet it.

Forgetting the rightness/wrongness of the conversation for a minute, is no one interested in or concerned about the information that Remark shared in our conversation? It sounds to me like a deal-breaker to the Harley program/principles.

What I am concerned about is the amount of lovebusters flying between the two of you.

What you posted was a fight. People say stupid things while fighting, so there's really no surprises there.

Stop fighting him, JDD.

Stop fighting him.

If you think it's a deal breaker, then file for divorce. They are easy to get.

Or do the program.

Either way, stop fighting.

The forum isn't here to referee Ogre vs Ogre.

It's been a week and a half.

It takes longer than that to break old habits and create new habits.

What he said wasn't said in anger in a fight, and I'm not looking for a referee. He shared his perspective, like he would do if we were discussing something for the PoJA. In his last post, he stated, "..and her position is untenable to me long-term." He's referring to his giving up his family unless/until I'm comfortable with them. I am not his priority, he would not choose me. How do I "do the program" when I just finished a week with him ignoring (forgetting) me because of his son and condo, and has an appointment in two weeks to go visit his family for dental work? Of course, that's followed by his aging father's birthday in August. There's always something.

What is the difference between this vs. if he was refusing to give up his EA partner?

And it hasn't been a week and a half. We talked to Dr. Harley the first time more than a year ago, and he's been on the forum since November. The issue of his family has been beat to death since Thanksgiving. It isn't a lack of understanding on his part, it's a refusal to disengage.

Is he really living in a condo without a working toilet?

Did you agree with his doing these renovations as a byproduct of his moving out?

You refuse to go on dates with him but pull him in to talk and accuse him of not caring about you? It is your choice not to have UA time, but he may lose motivation to save the marriage. It's a vicious circle. He is thoughtless (out of sight out of mind). You feel frustrated. He hears your frustration and feels hopeless. You have good reason to feel forgotten. But don't expect him to react and think as you would. He won't interpret things the same way you do..

I am not defending his behavior. But I think the only way that Remark will remember you is for you to be integrated into his task list. And he find himself further away from you now. I know how difficult it can be to have your husband forget about you. But that won't change unless he can form a habit of consistent pleasant time together. Scheduled. Where else would he find the motivation to change and save the marriage? He "should" want to, but he feels beaten down. Do you treat him like you did when you were dating?

So what things are you willing to let him do to fill your love bank? Are you willing to set a schedule like Sugar suggested?

Would you consider the online program now? This way is not going to work.

It doesn't have to be in anger to be a fight.

You are fighting. You have been since you got here, and still are.

This is how you can do the program: stop fighting with him. You haven't stopped as of yet, and you continue to be disrespectful.

If what he said is a deal breaker for you, file for divorce. They are easy to get.

It's a very big difference, and to compare the two is an insult to any betrayed spouse.

An answer to this would help him greatly. If you are not willing to answer it, then I'm not sure what you want him to do.

You cannot refuse to spend time with him then be upset when he finds something else to do.

When I was separated from markos, I allowed him to date me on a regular schedule. I allowed him the chance to fill my lovebank. It worked.

Are you willing to do that?

When he moved in, it had 3 working toilets. He opted to renovate all three bathrooms at the same time and disabled them. This is not a cheap condo.
No. I originally suggested he try cleaning the carpets, he did otherwise. No more suggestions from me.
I've described the few "dates" I've had with him. Not sure what good it would do to do more of them.
The Harley program should look the same to both of us, no?
I see him little to treat him in any way but I doubt much has changed. His behavior has not so my reaction is probably similar to what it was.
I told him today that I would talk to a coach, but it's unlikely we'll get past the first week or so. Doing the PoJA makes him angry.