No, it wasn't, but I could see how it could be interpreted that way. Obviously I have my way of interacting with him, but I've watched other people interact with him for years (counselors, pastors, friends) and tried to learn a better way. With them, they either wash their hands and step away pretty quickly, or it lands here, looking like the interaction on his thread. Why? If someone on his thread is able to demonstrate an alternative that is successful, the words/format will become my bible.

Perhaps I'll witness that with Steve.

This, too, was an underhanded way of making a criticism of Prisca and others who criticised you.

You wrongly attributed that story to Prisca, which you now want to brush off with "doh", but there was a pretty nasty message that you were trying to convey when you thought that this was her story.

Prisca was as "done" with her marriage as you are with yours. Prisca was so withdrawn that she wanted nothing to do with markos. (She has written about her feelings on various threads, and I won't reiterate them here.) Yet markos wanted the marriage so badly that (as you mis-remembered the story), even when Prisca had an angry outburst and threw something at markos (which is, in fact, not just angry but physically violent), markos did the right thing and took the message that he had screwed up - and backed down. And if this was markos and Prisca's story (which it wasn't), then markos must have kept going through the storm of this unacceptable behaviour, and here they are today - QED; what worked, worked.

I think that the point you were trying to make is that this has now become a funny story on MB, and that nobody gives Prisca a dressing down for it. She is given a pass on this forum for her bad behaviour, because she was so badly hurt in her marriage, and markos was such a (bleep - choose your word). Prisca has been given favourable treatment here, and yet here she is today, laying into you for much more restrained "bad behaviour" (you didn't yell or physically attack Remark) and acting like she has some special insight into how to behave in the face of a cruel husband - when in fact, when she was in your shoes, she behaved...abusively.

You are trying to point out Prisca's hypocrisy and short memory, just as you were trying to point out the hypocrisy of the forum in operating double standards about "fighting".

And when DQ pointed out that the lettuce incident was in fact MelodyLane's story, you were able to take the focus off why you asked about it, by saying "doh". In other words, "silly me; I made a mistake. So that story isn't relevant here. Let's move on."

But what is relevant about that story is that you were using it to fight with us, as you have been doing on this thread whenever it is pointed out that your behaviour is harming your marriage.

Quite understandably, you are happy when someone like me, or indie as she did yesterday, gives an interpretation of Remark's behaviour that illuminates the horrible implications of what he says and does, or fails to say and do. When we give him a good slapping, and dress him down, you get the satisfaction that you came to the forum to receive. He is wrong, and you are suffering - that is confirmed and demonstrated by posts that support your point of view. And while Remark has never, throughout the marriage, accepted your interpretations of his actions, and has in fact belittled them, he has received a shock when he has heard those same interpretations from others - that he has not been a reasonable husband. In fact, he's been an ogre.

But what you do not like (again, quite understandably), is when you post to get support for your point of view, and are instead told that YOU did, or are doing, something that was harmful to the marriage. That is what I did the other night when I posted that the conversation should not have taken place - I, your "sister from another mother" who previously had such empathy with you. You didn't come here to be told that you did something harmful. You have endured 20 years of hurt. You should be given a pass, like Prisca is given over the lettuce incident (as you wrongly thought).

The thing is that I, and possibly others, take it that you are posting here, and asking for help from Dr Harley (and, soon, Steve Harley) because you want to give Remark and the marriage one last chance. It is a heck of an effort for you to drag yourself up to do that, but you are posting here, and continually pushing Remark to post here, so that is what we assume - that you are working in good faith with us.

But when I see that you refuse to listen to our advice about your own actions - such as my advice to schedule UA dates with Remark, to fill in the LB sheets, and not to have horrible talks about his failings, and when I see you actually fighting with the posters here (belittling our points, and passive-aggressively pointing out what hypocrites some of us are), I begin to doubt that you are genuinely asking for our help with building your marriage. I wonder whether you know that you are never going to take Remark back, and I wonder whether you are looking for validation, while you already know the outcome.

I have no problem if you have decided to divorce, and if you know that you will never accept Remark back. I think you have endured enough to make that call, and I stand by every word of "interpretation" I made, that you felt was supportive to you. I don't think you are obliged to work on your marriage any longer because you have a son, and I think you have ample justification for calling it a day. I just wish that, if that is what you have indeed decided (as your actions show to me), that you would be honest about that.

\

Yep, that is the exact idea I get. Remark has no chance at all. I think she needs to be honest and just say I don't want to work and get a divorce. She seems unwilling to REALLY try. She is just looking for an excuse. Be honest.

That wasn't what I recalled from the story at all, and my focus actually was on Mel's H's response. I could care less about the yelling or throwing lettuce. I was moved by the fact Mel's H responded in a manner that showed that he "got it" and immediately changed his response. It's not that he was perfect from then on out. It's not that he never did it again. But at least AT THAT MOMENT, he did the right thing. I don't get that from Remark. If I tell him, "That really hurt my feelings," I get silence, or a smirk, defensiveness, or criticized for feeling that way. Her story simply gave me an example of a healthy form of interaction. It was a beam of light on a cloudy day. Not a solution, not my life, just a pleasant recollection.

ETA: Funny, when I remembered it yesterday and posted the thanks, it made me happy. But when I just typed it in detail, it made me cry, I think because we're so far from it that it brought on another wave of hopelessness.

This is the crux of the misunderstanding really. You CANNOT do this. Cannot watch how teachers, counsellors, pastors advise him and copy them.

It's disrespectful to try to teach our spouses anything. If he goes to someone for a lecture, great, but don't allow the lectures into your marriage. He doesn't need to be in love with these people, it's ok for them to teach. It's not ok for you.

A big part of the problem is that you think it's your job to express yourself in such a way that he finally gets it. You think the definition of success is a response from him. This puts you under intolerable pressure because we cannot control others, we can only control ourselves.

The definition of success for you would be to let go entirely of seeking an 'Aha!' response to your lecture. Go get a pedicure. Give Remark the time, space and freedom to approach you with DEEDS not words, fun not lectures, and of his own volition. If he never does, you'll be ok. I honestly think he wants to but he can't do it under the fire of confrontation.

The serenity prayer is applicable here: accept the things we cannot change. Change the things we cannot accept.

This. This. This.

Well obviously I didn't interact with him like this when we first met or we wouldn't have married. I tried the "loving, sexy, happy" approach to complaints early on. Obviously it didn't work.

I'll go look for it but please throw in if anyone knows of something on-site. I've read the article about the unhappy/nagging wife and the warning to the Hs to respond before it gets that bad. But I don't recall anything telling the wife what she's supposed to do when the H doesn't. We read the Harley books when we first married, went to counseling when there were obvious problems. I tried plan A several times before I knew what plan A was. Remark even moved out once before to an apartment. It got here because nothing else worked.

If it's disrespectful to try to teach our spouses anything, what should have been done instead?

You've done it! Separated. When a husband doesn't stop despite his wife's complaints she has two options: separation to protect herself from witnessing the complaints or she can choose abuse by forcing her complaints on him.


You think it's your job to remodel him, it's not. It's your job to remove yourself until he does it. Keeping him in the home for a length of time is directly opposed to the goal of separation.

You are separated so that you can avoid experiencing each other in a negative way.

Prisca did not get me to realize that I messed up by blowing up at me.

She got me to realize that I had messed up by ending her demands, disrespect, and her anger, and by becoming the most charming wife she could be.

No, you don't reward thoughtlessness. You separate. And not for a short period before going back to business as usual, if your complaints are not addressed you divorce. Dr H addresses it in When to call it quits.

If you are looking for a method that works on the free will of another person there isn't one. The successful address of your complaints is not your job. Enforcement is limited to removing yourself.

However the most effective way to encourage your spouse is to avoid lovebusters and use PoJA and enforce what you won't accept with separation. Don't ever try to get your way verbally. Complaints are notifications which need no on the spot 'I get it' response.

I don't think you have eliminated SDs and DJs, your posts are littered with them. That conversation was not PoJAd as R was not enthusiastic. In the past, you have done things you were not enthusiastic about. It doesn't work.

For the time being, I'd raise your complaints here while you learn. Youre exhausted and could do with the help in having them addressed.

This is how you remembered the incident:

You remembered that Prisca/Mel had an angry outburst, threw something, yelled and stormed out, and you remembered markos/Mel's H backing down.

You interpret that as the correct response - he "got it", he "changed his response"," AT THAT MOMENT he did the right thing".

How was giving in about the shopping the "right thing"? And what was he supposed to "get" - that if his wife wants to buy expensive lettuce, then he is duty bound to give in to her? He told her to get whatever shopping she wanted. How, in the Marriage Builders universe, is that "the right thing"? Is it POJA?

Mel tells that story to show that she did not have a clue that she should have POJAd that situation. She "knew" she was right, and she knew it so much that she wrote to Dr H for validation - and got a shock when he wrote about her independent behaviour, and told her to knock it off. He told her that in future, she and her H were to agree every single item that went into the grocery cart, and if they could not agree on it, it should not be bought. He did not tell her that she was justified, as a woman who earned a good salary and had good sense, in taking decisions about what food should be bought, against her husband's clearly-expressed objections. He did not tell them that Mel"s H was right "to back down". In fact he told them the opposite - that Mel was wrong to have imposed her view (IB).

In fact, Dr H told them the same kind of thing that we have been trying to tell you; that you and Remark both do things that are harmful to the marriage. His IB, rudeness and other things are far more important than your unpleasant discussions and DJs, and his behaviour is by far the more pressing concern, but both of you do harmful things, and both must stop.

"There are two separate issues that should be addressed in your marriage: angry outbursts and independent behavior. The more important of the two is the angry outbursts." Dr H did not give Mel a pass when he wrote that.

The "right thing" in response to his angry outburst would have been for her H to have apologised, and for them to have left the shopping until he was calm - whether that took 15 minutes or was left to another day. The right thing in response to her IB would have been for him NOT to have backed down, but POJA.

Remark's "silence, or a smirk, defensiveness, or flipped two fingers" are unacceptable. Since he is doing those things now, you can end the marriage now. If you don't want to end it now, use Dr Harley's recommendation to write down the LBs and give them list to him weekly. If he doesn't change, end the marriage.

Obviously, I didn't remember the story fully. Hell, I didn't even remember who posted it or who it involved. I guess I just remembered what I wanted to. But don't worry, I've squashed that little sunbeam good! SO sorry I posted it in the first place. Back to being negative all the time, I guess. Apparently I'm much better at that anyway.

(Yes, I'm throwing a temper tantrum, but at least I'm not doing it to Remark, right?)

The tide can turn...

We learn new, better ways of interacting. There is hope, Day.

When's your appointment?

I don't know, I'm still waiting to hear, but my summary is done.

The direct answer to the last question would be; yes. Not speaking to others about your husband disrespectfully will help to eliminate the habit of talking to your husband disrespectfully.

Though, the definition of a DJ you posted is like... the first paragraph? That definition covers pretty much every Love Buster.

A disrespectful judgement;


And it's not a recent thing you have been called out on, it happened months back... and your response to poster pointing out your behavior hasn't changed... I suppose neither have we. I am still "brash and castigating." But, I'm not interested in filling up your Love Bank. I am interested in helping you, in your thread, learn how you can carry your half of the load.

I'll tell you that the idea of "keeping your side of the street clean" is one of the reasons I love what I call the "Lord of the Lettuce" incident when Mel decides to share it. It is one of the many stories that inspired me to put the first quote in my signature; some of the BEST posters here were miserable failures in their own marriages.... some for YEARS.. before they "got it." And what we usually "get," is the contribution of our own poor behavior to the detriment of the marriage.

In the first mail, you see how indignant Mel was about her own behavior, she was ENTITLED to have her way based on her age, salary, etc. That isn't surprising! We all attempt to justify our Love Busters due to bad marital habit. Since we started with DJs here, I'll continue the article;


And those Love Bank withdrawals work against our intentions to get our needs met.

Now, your immediate response both the first time that was posted and recently, was that you thought that "Mel's husband 'got it.'"

But, he didn't. He had an AO. She had an AO. And then he capitulated to her AO. In essence, he sacrificed. He was willing to let her gain at his expense.

I suspect you see this as "getting it" because in your marriage... that has been YOU. Your response has been "Do whatever you want." I could only guess that this is a conditioned response to his temper tantrums when his requests are denied what ultimately becomes and IB. And that is in his court.

As far as what to tell him? We've told you over and over... and they are small, simple phrases.

If you don't like something;

"I'm not enthusiastic about that."

If he does something that bothers you;

"It bothers me when you..."


Short, simple, to the point.

As for "repercussions," you are already separated. If he can't clean up his behaviors; change the locks, change your phone number, go in to Plan B, and prepare for divorce.

The same end-game you have been given since November.

Set a date; give him 6 months from today to make radical changes, and if he doesn't do it, go dark and prepare for divorce.

And during that 6 months; don't Plan A. Just avoid your own Love Busters, and allow him the opportunity to meet your needs.

Allow him the opportunity to fail...



... or succeed.

You won't know immediately if he's a success. If he makes the necessary changes, and meets your needs appropriately, suddenly you may be able to tolerate his existence. Then you might even want him around a bit. Eventually, you might even be interested in meeting his needs (this may take quite a long time).

All you have to do is afford him the opportunity to fail. Or not fail.

Help him meet your needs a bit. Short, simple, to the point;

"I love it when you..."

"I would love it if you would..."

Okay, this is tough on my phone, but...

Please let's not talk anymore about my reference to Mel's post. My post is being misinterpreted. I agree with everything clarified about her post, I just wasn't thinking on that scale, not even remembering a tenth of what I'm accused of applying. Please forget I posted it.

I've read yours and all the other posts and have already started "programming" my head to think that way. I have only one question. I'm getting very mixed messages on whether to post about Remark's actions. You specifically said no. Others have said I should post his DJ's weekly, but then it seemed like no one was even reading them. I've been told it's very helpful for me to post my perspective, then had it rejected because the forum isn't here to tell Remark to do what I want (something like that, damn tiny phone.) I've been here regularly, I've been absent for weeks. So can you (as a group) clarify what you want from me on the forum?

My recommendation would be to print and fill out the following Love Buster form;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/Love_Busters_Q_Hers.pdf

Give a completed form to Remark each week, and then HE can post it to his own thread.

Ask him to do the same for you.

That way, we can focus on each of you on your own thread.

In fact, you two may want to go through each of the questionnaires;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi4500_resource.html

Prioritize eliminating Love Busters, and getting UA done properly.

As you begin to have pleasant UA and eliminating Love Busters, hone in on each other's top 3-5 ENs.

My wife and I did both the LB and EN sheets WEEKLY for a few months, then monthly.... then every few months.... and now maybe once a year.


This will help you become experts in avoiding LBs and meeting each others' ENS.

Okay, then in summary, if he doesn't give me a form or I've successfully avoided all Lb's for the week, then I have nothing to post. And whether or not he posts what I give to him is up to him and I shouldn't post about it if he doesn't.. Is that all re: the forum?

That would work.

You could also report your UA time for the week.