There are spyware programs that don't show up. Lucky for you, the phone has to be rooted for them to work. After installing the program, you must make sure to delete any trace of the installation process in several places including the download history, the installer/application registry, and the internet history of visiting the website. You probably forgot to do one of those. Any one of those remaining are a red flag signaling spyware, and because you keep discussing it, he is monitoring his phone and/or this thread for strange activity. If installed correctly, the actual spyware program will not have a detectable name. Otherwise, they wouldn�t be able to sell them now, would they? So, for a novice, you need some significant time to install, and it's best to choose a company with customer support to walk you through Blove,
the process so that you can leave no trace.

I think that you made a mistake by discussing this before having all of the facts. He was being blatant and doing it right in your face. So why does he care to hide it? IMHO, you should be snooping to find out the extent of what he is doing online. It could be anything from an online affair to checking out semi-dressed women and fantasizing to get off. You need to know what you are dealing with here, and he is protecting whatever it is and manipulating you in the process.

So don't turn this into a power struggle by discussing it. You will gain more power by quietly gathering knowledge. The less you discuss, the better. At this point, you need to do the following:

1. Quietly figure out what the competition is.

2. Decide your standards and plan.

3. Write him a letter telling him how the behavior hurts you
and about what you need from him.
This is a �You�re hurting me!� written notice, not an
ultimatum letter.

4. Follow your plan, using his attitude and your snooping facts
to determine which direction to go.

You can't build a great marriage when anyone or anything stands between you. That's just the way it is. Find out what it is that is distracting him, and root it out, hopefully with his support.

About the letter:


1. Clarify that you feel betrayed by any type of focusing on
other women for gratification. You want to be his one and
only. He may be rationalizing his activities by saying
that they aren't "porn". If a guy wants to cake eat
in order to masturbate, he can do it without "porn".

2. Clarify that your heart breaks when he has any sexual
experience that do not include you and only you.
You need him to stop causing you that pain.

4. You cannot trust him without his allowing EPs and
accountability. Mention that you would like to discuss
filters or polygraphs, or other ideas, but
DON'T mention spyware or your secret methods of snooping!
(Always have a backup method for snooping that
he is not aware of!)

You KNOW that there is a problem. You are NOT out of line to try to solve it. Please don't be naive and trusting. That is NOT caring for your spouse or marriage. Where there is smoke, there is usually fire. Dr. Harley says that NOBODY, including himself should be blindly trusted.

Just got back from a weekend at the lake. Reading link now. Thank you for all the help and for helping me understand all this.

I did read all the material Prisca posted, thank you! I really hope it helps us. I have some time to myself tonight to write a letter.

Today he was on his way home from class and the app blocked his gaming forum. He called right away and had a huge AO that even the repair lady could hear with it completely turned down. I was still crying when he got home. He stared at me and said "good you should be crying" followed by "I can't believe you installed that into my phone". I was so mad and hurt. I replied with "your behavior is hurting me and I need this app on your phone so I can hold you accountable for your actions." He blew up again mentioning this isn't an affair and I said it was very similar. He continued to AO for 15 mins in front of the kids and I just stopped talking to him.

He continued with an email...
I can't even say this to you without losing my mind, so here it is in print.

It's the exact same thing? Really? I can't believe you!

**EDIT**

Let me make a recording of it happening multiple times.

Then you can listen to that, knowing our kids were on the other side of the wall and may or may not have heard it.

Then tell me its the same thing.

For someone who expresses such contempt for "hypocrites," you sure are a piece of work.

I don't care what you think, or what you think you read from someone on MB forums or anywhere else. It's NOT the same, at ALL. That doesn't mean it's OK, or that I have some right to do wrong, but don't even DARE to compare it to what you did. Even if someone thought they were the same, you don't get to tell ME that it's the same thing. **EDIT**

You really ought to listen to yourself. I have the recording backed up in various places. You should come listen to it, and then you can let me know if it is "just as bad."

**EDIT**. <---End email

I'm done. I can't stand this....

Listen: the next time he starts an AO over the phone- hang up!!!!
Why are you allowing to be subjected to that???

Comes home with AO- leave immediately- no matter what he says. If he becomes scary-
CALL THE POLICE!!!!

Go re-read Prisca's post on what to do with an angry husband.

Never, ever, ever, allow yourself to stay around an AO ever again. Get that in your head- leave, walk away, hang up. You & your kids are in DANGER!

If my H ever sent me a letter that horrific, I would go pack his bags, change the locks & tell him he can come back when he gets into anger Management & gets help for his porn.

Seriously.

Make plans right now to not allow this.

Blove, I wouldn't attempt to persuade him of anything. He doesn't have to agree that it is similar to an affair, and he probably never will, and trying to get your point across to him is only going to result in him dragging up the past.

Instead, simply let him know that his porn use hurts you so much you cannot tolerate it, and that if he doesn't stop it and provide you complete transparency, you will not be able to stay with him. Let him decide if he wants a relationship on those terms or not. A relationship on any other terms is not worth having.

Blove, I think it would be great if you would get in touch with Dr. Harley and explain what is going on here. His email address is mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

That was painful to read.

Yes, it IS the same as an affair ...
BUT, don't try to educate him on that.

All you need to do is concentrate on "This hurts me terribly and I need it to stop." Don't get dragged into an argument over whether it is the same as an affair or not.

Refuse to even discuss your past affair. It has no bearing on this, and he's only bringing it up to shame you into doing what he wants.

Refuse to argue. Leave the room if necessary.

Ask him to get into an anger management class. If he refuses, separate. None of this will get better as long as he has AOs.
If he removes the spyware from his phone, then separate. He is not safe. Don't threaten separation, just do it. We can help.

You are more important than some freakin' phone. You deserve to be treated better than this. Remember that, and draw the line.

Dr. Harley was very helpful to me during markos' severe AOs. I encourage you to write to him, as well.

The only reason for this statement was to goad you into a fight. Do not engage him when he is having an AO. Do not educate him. Simply leave.

He can debate that in a room by himself.

That's the exact letter I sent. Thanks!

Definitely going to shoot an email to Dr H.

He's giving me the cold shoulder, won't speak to me at all and slept on the couch.

My biggest issue with all of this is that he straight up told me he'd easily have access to porn in other places. He's free to go to school and during that time he's in and out of his best friends house. His car is currently not working so we're down to 1 vehicle and I can't control where he goes with our working vehicle. I don't trust him at all right now, especially since we're budding heads and needs aren't being met.

Blove, how did he respond to the letter?

Have you heard from Dr. Harley, yet?

Blove, I heard your question read and answered on the radio show from July 30:

Marriage Builders Radio July 30

How are things going? We'd love to help you.

Thanks for posting the link I actually never got a chance to hear it when it aired.

I havent caught him looking at porn at all since I have been holding him accountable. Instead he downloaded pictures of me, which is a nice turnaround. However AO's & DJ's are at an all time high right now. He's even taking his anger out on the children a few times.

Now he avoids me at night after the children go to bed by playing computer games. He's on the computer all day long if he doesnt have school or an event with me & the children. I've suggested many date ideas or even finish unpacking our house, he just avoids answering.

Tonight I came home from my fitness class to a child with a scraped arm & hand that was unattended (bloody mess that his dad shrugged off) and a baby screaming bloody murder while daddy was playing his video game. Our baby developed a rash because he wanst changed upon waking. The children weren't fed dinner even though I was told he'd do it. I loaded the kids up in the van and when we returned BT was gone.

After tonight and the recent events I've come to the conclusion that we absolutely need a separation. I have no idea where to go from here and no idea where to even start with what I'm going to say to BT.

I feel completely broken, alone and ashamed that my marriage is failing again....

Good grief. Stupid video games.

Don't talk about separation with him, or make any threats. Just quietly make your plans.

You need to view his AOs as an absolute threat to your safety, as well as the safety of your children. Men who are normally gentle and loving have been known to maim or kill their wives during an AO -- he is insane, and not in control of what he is doing. All it takes is one more AO and you're gone. Or one of your kids.

So make getting out of there with your kids your priority. Do you have family nearby? Friends? A church? If not nearby, can you pack up and travel to where your family and friends live?

Again, don't warn him that you're leaving him. Just do it.

Don't feel ashamed. Separating from him is part of holding the bar high -- if he wants to keep you, he'll do what it takes to reach that bar. You are giving him his best chance of keeping his marriage with you by not tolerating despicable and harmful behavior.

Have you told your family what he is doing to you? Have you told his family?

I agree with Prisca that you need to make getting out of there with your kids a priority.

Let me also add that between computer games and disappearing / running off, I'm somewhat suspicious that he may be having an affair himself.

Tell everyone what is going on and GET OUT OF THERE.

Also, keep Dr. Harley updated on what's going on. He and Joyce care about those who write into the show, and he will be a great source of encouragement and strength for you right now. He was for me when I separated from markos.