I have divorced and it is much easier to just go do it than have a bunch of lovebusting conversations about it. You are right that a divorce is a trauma. There is no such thing as an amiable divorce (a concept I actually find offensive because it reminds me of my own experience). My husband's conversations with me about how he wanted to divorce me and be buddies were heartbreaking. I really would rather he hadnt put me through that. Especially the part where he insulted me with offers of friendship.

Funny but he never did file, I had to do it. Just keep in mind that you are the less in love spouse. If it is a trauma and difficulty for you, it will be more so for R.

D2D, I was on here for 5 years trying to get my marriage to a loving, considerate one, and I failed. I tried to separate like you and Remark are doing, but we were not amicable, and my then-H said if I want him out I need to divorce him. I tried to have a lot of the talks you two were doing, trying to get him to "admit" that my perspective is valid, too, and all it did was make more LB withdrawals for both of us. My marriage was dead. Having gone through lots of death and grieving since then, I think it's more compassionate to give the good, without digging up the "what-ifs" and try to feel understood from the person least willing to provide that.

For the divorce itself, there really was very little to hash out. My attorney made a 50-50 proposal, he gave a counter offer that also was 50-50, just shuffled some things from one column to another. I'm telling you, I think something similar would be the most humane thing to both of you. You see very clearly that he is not willing to reconcile with someone who has bad feelings, in other words a negative love bank balance, towards him. You or I may not agree that is a wise choice for him to make, but he has every right to decide that.

He is still suffering that Renter mentality, that if you suffered, then you earned more negotiating power, so it is a bad position for him. When you and I know that with two Buyers, every negotiation can end up with a win-win, no one needs to sacrifice, that it creates a mutually happy life for both of you. It's okay, you can go on to make a happy life for yourself. I know there are parts of divorce that are not easy, it is very much like losing a limb, the pain and sadness are very real. Once you get to that point, I can tell you lots of it is not as painful as the part before, the being in a marriage alone. But the paperwork part, you can make that part itself easy and humane for both of you.

Indie, I disagree that she is the less in love spouse. She's thinking about him, calling him to see if she can "tag along," while he fixes up his place. Actions speak louder than words.

Been two weeks. Still on course but just thought I'd post an update on our interactions, since some people still seem to think this M is salvageable, and since Remark is not posting much. There is very little interaction between Remark and myself, but we had this email exchange yesterday, initiated by me:
D2D: I texted you last evening asking if you were finished with Steve. You didn't answer, are you ignoring my question on purpose?
R: No, I�m sorry. I thought I checked my phone and there wasn�t anything. No, I�m not finished with him. I have one more appt paid for. I have not scheduled it yet. Are you looking for something in particular?
I�m pretty much focused on getting the floor finished and the financing procured. I have an appraisal a week from Monday. I need to have the flooring done and it in order for that �inspection�. If I don�t complete the refinancing by 8/7, I have to pay another $x for an inspection.
D2D: I didn't want anything in particular, I just thought that was your last one. I haven't seen anything come out of your previous sessions with him. In fact, things seem to have died on the "marriage" front altogether and I was just doing a status check on your state of mind.
R: My state of mind has not changed. I don�t want to be divorced. I don�t want you or me to be miserable.
D2D: You didn't say much. I'm trying to interpret what that means. We've been on this course for a very long time and I don't see any change in your behavior. It's like you're saying you don't want to be fat but there's no evidence of a change of lifestyle to address your dissatisfaction. Should I interpret it more like you "don't want to get old (divorced)" but accept it as a natural course with little to do about it even if you don't like it?
R: I don�t know how to respond to that. No one likes to get old. I don�t liken divorce to getting old. Getting old is unavoidable. Continuing to live with someone in the unhealthy way we lived the past many years is avoidable in a number of ways. I do not loathe or have disdain towards you. I�ll continue to work on my behavior that is offensive to you. If living with me means misery for you, I�m sorry, I don�t desire that for you.
D2D: Getting fat is also avoidable, but it requires an intentional, proactive lifestyle change to prevent it, especially if your prior lifestyle resulted in packing on the pounds. "Wanting/hoping/trying" is NOT an intentional, proactive change, and I literally see no change in your behaviors; in fact, you appear to be embracing the current arrangement wholeheartedly.
Your commitment to "work on behaviors that offend me" won't sustain a marriage and it won't prevent our divorce. It will help to foster an amicable divorce. In light of that, I'm having a very difficult time figuring out what work you're doing with Steve. Or even what your current state of mind is.
R: Busy now resolving issue before I leave to get Jake. Will reply later.

That was yesterday afternoon but he has yet to respond.

I also posed this question to him to discuss with Steve last week, with Remark's response:
Since I've been hearing the complaint regarding your living on sub-floor for a over month now, I made one phone call, to Boardwalk, the place where you said you purchased the flooring. They said that they don't install themselves, but that installers typically charge about $2.75/sq ft to install hardwood. This means that you could have paid $1815 (660 * $2.75) and been done with this 6 weeks ago. I would like for you to explain to me and Steve why you haven't done that. It isn't because you can't afford it, yet you're pointing to it as being the life-critical distraction that prevents you from having the time/energy/resources/??? to invest in our marriage. If you're truly doing "everything you can to save this marriage," why didn't you pay someone to install the flooring weeks ago and get this distraction out of the way? (This is another example of why I believe you're not interested in doing the Harley program, because there is an alternative that you've rejected that would have eliminated weeks of distraction, choosing instead an option that consumes your time and energy and supercedes an investment in the marriage.) (Remark) Well, I didn�t consider Boardwalk installing, knowing it�d be about that. Why you think I can afford it, I�m not sure. I planned on saving that $$$ when the other vendor that Sandy was recommending (1) was significantly higher than that and (2) couldn�t get to it, ironically, for 6 weeks. It�s something you and I did, and I thought I�d do to save $$ like you and I did. I went with Boardwalk for the wood because they had the cheapest wood price. Even $1800 is a lot of money!

He said he discussed it with Steve but nothing much was said. The flooring project continued as is. For me, the flooring project has become the toilet incident all over again, on steroids.

I made plans last week to take our son boating tomorrow. It's not my thing but he enjoys it and I think he should have the same opportunities his older siblings had for years. When son mentioned our plans to Remark, he initially offered to me to take us, describing it as "showing extraordinary care" for me and my feelings. When I said it wasn't for me, that I was only doing it for our son, but that he was welcome to come along, he opted out, saying he was going to work on the flooring instead. When he found out yesterday that his buddy was going, he changed his mind and now he's opted in again.

On the way home last night, I was starving and texted him and asked if he and son had eaten. They hadn't and I invited them out to dinner at the corner restaurant. There was no relationship discussion and I focused on being pleasant. In spite of my efforts, Remark still ruined the evening for me. I was addressing my son regarding his struggles with school, trying to motivate him to embrace his responsibility and think long-term and try harder. It didn't last more than 5-10 minutes I think, but when I was done, Remark said to son, "So, would you like some more lecturing?" as a p/a dig at my attempt at motivation. I well might have failed miserably at my attempt, but his comment was so unnecessary.

I don't have any idea what Remark is gleaning from his private appointments with Steve. During the time we talked with him together, Steve was very clear in stating that it's not MY job to make myself fall in love in Remark, and vice-versa. I can't see Remark doing anything toward that end. When I asked Remark how he saw us reconciling, he said that my heart would soften and we would learn to accept each others warts, but I can't tie that approach to the Harley program.

The last time you posted, you were filing for divorce. How is that coming along?

Coming along. I've been advised not to discuss it here. But since this is a "marriage" site, that only seems appropriate and marriage advice/perspective/feedback is what I'm looking for anyway. I would put a stop to the 'D' immediately if I saw any hope for the M.

You are still disrespectful to Remark. What are you doing about that?

How am I being disrespectful to him?

On a "marriage' site it would be appropriate to discuss divorce especially since you recently told us you were filing for divorce. If you are dissolving the marriage, as you told us recently, we should give you advice along those lines. That would be appropriate.

Okay, well I'm still going to abide by the advice of my external counsel on that aspect. If you're telling me you are unable/unwilling to offer feedback on M things, such as how I'm still being disrespectful to Remark as Prisca stated, then I'll have to accept that, of course.

I'm still learning and am not a pro, but I'll try to point out where I see disrespectful judgements. This is what I think is how your complaints should be phrased.

1- It bothered me when you did not answer my text about if you were finished with Steve and when you didn't get back to me.
(Are you ignoring me on purpose is a judgement guessing his state of mind)

2-It bothers me when you do not call, text, or invite me out. I really miss our fun times and your company. (Most of what you wrote is disrespectful and falls under how you feel but perhaps better left unsaid)

3/4- It bothers me that I don't feel first or important in this marriage. (The rest is disrespectful since you are trying to teach him.)

Flooring....It bothers me that the flooring is taking up all your time and I don't feel important. I would also like to Poja decisions on the condo remodel.

It bothers me that you didn't want to go boating with Me and son but changed your mind when friend was going.

It bothered me when you said I was lecturing son and that you said it in front of son.

We are struggling here with disrespectful judgements too. I so very much want my husband to understand my point of view that I wind up "teaching" him my point of view. He also asks me to explain a lot but that turns back into teaching. I am starting to just keep my bar raised and just respectfully say my complaint. My husband is trying to accept the complaint respectfully. We are improving but it's still new and hard not to fall back on 20+ years of terrible habits on both sides. I'm learning less is more although my tongue is use to saying lots more. I do understand how you feel and my feelings would be hurt too.

We have talked to you about your disrespectful judgements before in quite a bit of detail. Use that information and dig through the post you made and see if you can find the disrespectful judgements. Take a stab at it.

You are going to need to learn to identify these. I do not see any change in how you talk to Remark, or how you talk about him.

How would you have felt if the tables were turned?

Remark decides that son needs equal opportunity recreation so he invites you after already making plans. You decline because you have work to do. So then he invites your girlfriend.

I find it very strange that his buddy would go with you instead of helping his own friend with the floors.

Is this the friend you also work for?

Do you have feelings for this friend? Something is off here. I'm in shock.

Yes, you have, sort of anyway. You said: So I reviewed what I posted.
- I see no sarcasm.
- I don't see where I'm assuming what he's thinking or feeling. I did ask clarifying questions to avoid assuming, and in trying to understand him because I didn't receive enough explanation from him for me to grasp his point. Perhaps it's something you think I'm assuming but I'm basing it on something he actually told me.
- I don't believe I used hyperbole. "On steroids," perhaps? I could have stated, "only bigger."
- I can sort of see where I'm trying to educate him. And I know how that developed. It's hard to distinguish between what is just trying to be clear (understandable) and trying to teach. It's compounded too because when we were talking to Steve and he asked Remark how he could convert the head knowledge he acquired from his extensive exposure to the program into real-life application, he said, "I don't have a clue." I get that I'm not supposed to teach him, but he isn't pursuing it from the forum anymore and only has one more session with Steve, so that's not real promising for me either. And I can accept that, it just means I stay on the current course.

Now THIS post is a glaring example of a disrespectful judgment! But although I can see it, I don't believe I ever do this.

I made plans with son because he's not a rock that I can put in a closet, and because I enjoy him. I suggested he invite his friend (son of friends.) I talked to his mom and formalized the plans, including her. Apparently she invited her husband (Remark's buddy) but he was undecided on going. In the meantime, son told Remark of the plans and Remark invited himself along, which I said he could, but then he opted out planning to work on his flooring instead. Yesterday, my friend let me know her husband would be coming along. Upon hearing that, Remark opted back in.

No, I don't work with him. No, I don't have feelings for him. I don't care to go around with this again. Either believe me or don't, but I'm tired of addressing this accusation.

Perhaps I'm just especially sensitive about this because Remark told me that he explained to Steve this week that we shouldn't get a D because NEITHER of us have had an affair. So here I'm once again having to explain/defend accusations based on suppositions while Remark is still denying doing anything wrong even when there's proof. This only days after I reviewed the cell phone bill to find dozens of phone calls each month and hundreds of text messages to phone numbers I don't recognize, which Remark tried to pawn off as his listening to MBRadio or iHeartRadio. If anyone is in shock, it's me.

Seriously, I'm not addressing this again. Either believe me or don't.

I think I'm seeing where our problem is. THIS does not work for us. I have phrased things like this, even a couple times this past week. Remark's response is to argue that my complaint is somehow wrong. The two things I asked him to talk to Steve about last week was his priority of remodeling the condo and his propensity to argue my complaints. I know they were discussed, I don't know what Steve's response was. I know Remark is still doing it.

So in my mind this links to Dr. Harley's article, "How to Deal with a Quarrelsome and Nagging Wife." As I see it, phrasing my complaints this way puts me back into the first phase where my "complaints are introduced with respect." Unfortunately, this seems to set Remark right back to the first phase as well, where he ignores/discounts my complaints. So although we'll have periods of no fighting and my respectful presentation of complaints, his response (or lack thereof) to my complaints makes for a logical hop in short order into the second phase.

Hi JD2D-

I truly understand the problem of non-response and avoidance. And I was that wife Dr. Harley talks about. I didn't go into withdrawal, but a constant state of trying to get my point across one way or another, whatever it took. And it seemed like "tit for tat" was the only language he comprehended. And I HATED doing that. My disrespect ruined my husband's positive feelings toward me. My reactions when frustrated became a main obstacle to our progress. It wasn't fair because the more upset I became about HIS dead end responses the less he wanted to be married to me. (And I just wanted a meeting of the minds and for him to care about me!)

Did you hear the radio show on Thursday? It was a woman with your same problem.

What you seem to be missing is that Dr. HARLEY wrote that article as an observation of the dynamic that tends to happen when a husband doesn't listen to a wife's complaints. Also as a way for men to make some sense their wife's behavior.
But Dr.Harley says that the BIGGEST problem for him is that once he starts helping the husband, he can't get the wife out of that mode. (my interpretation: disrespectful, argumentative and angry,aka abusive).

You may not see alternatives to drilling it in, but there are. Instead you defend your own love busting as a necessary and justified evil.

Remark also love busts when he sees no alternatives.

The alternative behavior paths are there and DO work when practiced consistently.

You have threatened divorce but are surprised that he is not motivated to chase you.

He sees a dead end from your reactions just like you see it in his.

Are you divorcing? Or are you going to dive in on your marriage?

Because it's destructive to threaten divorce in a fit of frustration and hurt. If you want to try then try. But here you come back after announcing divorce, and you do lots of finger pointing. Your tone toward Remark and the forum is often hostile.

Now you can swallow your pride and look for how that could be true or you can fire back, then storm off until you �something again. Vets try to help those who can be helped.

Even if in your view respectful complaining does not get you what you want.... why would you think that non-respectful complaining would?

Does that sound logical? Perhaps the answer to getting what you want lies not in your complaints (except insofar as their delivery should not exacerbate the problem) but in some other part of the relationship dynamic.

Kerala-

Correct. It is not logical. But when you are at a dead end you will resort to anything!

In my own situation, disrespectful complaining was the only way that my husband would pay attention. And it DID work! Temporarily. It gave me an emotional fix to finally get his attention and the perception of progress because he finally had engaged instead of avoided.

But the end doesn't justify the means. My pushing him to listen using lovebusters did not solve the problem and it did destroy any possibility of my being attractive to him.

Look again, and try harder. The disrespect is there, and you need to practice finding it if your marriage has any hope.

Don't expect this forum to put any more effort into your marriage than you do.

Yes, deciding that you simply CANNOT be respectful to your husband is a very big problem.