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Originally Posted by DidntQuit
Originally Posted by Remark
All,

I'd love to date my wife. I am desperately lonely as I know she is.

...Our conversations seem fewer but long, unproductive and unpleasant.

... I dread conversations with her. Yes, true statement, because they are mostly so unpleasant. It would seem to be both a cause and an effect.

... I am a terrible communicator when I do attempt to communicate.

...We cannot seem to find a balance where we enjoy each other, and spend enough time on problems to solve them. Any advice on this topic?

...I can commit to something...but even after doing it for a couple or three weeks, forget about it for some unknown reason.


Reposting some advice for you:

Originally Posted by DidntQuit
Do you consistently share your willingness and invite your wife to join you in the online coaching program?
Didnt,
I haven't for a while. I'll revisit it.
Thanks,
Remark

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Originally Posted by Remark
All,

No, I am not dating anyone else. I'd love to date my wife. I am desperately lonely as I know she is.

Our conversations seem fewer but long, unproductive and unpleasant. Instead of JD2D being my favorite person to do anything with, I have become more comfortable lonely not in her presence, than being lonely and feel despised in her presence. And, I dread conversations with her. I know her conversations, though unpleasant are her attempt to "reconcile". But they are so unproductive, and critical of me that I prefer being alone in my condo. I know I have a "plank in my eye. I don't need to hear about it so much. Most of our time is supposed to be pleasant. I literally get uncomfortable and sweaty when we talk. I am definitely NOT saying she is an "unreasonable cow". I am saying it's hard to imagine 15 hours a week when so much of our conversations now are about my "plank".

She also says I am a terrible communicator when I do attempt to communicate.

Her solution is to have no more conversations. I know no conversation is a recipe for failure. I know all negative conversation is a recipe for disaster as well. We cannot seem to find a balance where we enjoy each other, and spend enough time on problems to solve them. Any advice on this topic?

But, I have no real news to tell anyway. I know you would not approve of some of my activity where I went to visit my parents and brother who fixed my three bad teeth saving me $$$$, the weekend before last.

I continue to listen to the show everyday. Today's was very good. I related to the caller's husband who makes promises but wife doesn't see long term improvement. Dr H presented three "theories" on the husband. Motivation, passive aggressive, and a third one. I related not because I get angry or passive aggressive, but because I can commit to something ( like doing the grocery shopping [the example on the show]) but even after doing it for a couple or three weeks, forget about it for some unknown reason. The reason, in my case, is not because I didn't intend to do what I committed to. It's more likely that it got much more difficult than it seemed when I committed to doing it.

Anyway, that's where things are with us.

Thanks,
Remark

But Remark, these things go together. You continue to do things you know hurt her, and then expect to be able to have pleasant conversation. It doesn't matter if you talk to her about it, if she knows you did it, then you've hurt her, so then what do you have to talk about?

Can you start conversations about the pleasant things you are doing, that you know do NOT hurt her? If she starts to bring up an unpleasant topic, have you respectfully said that the conversation is becoming unpleasant for you and then cheerfully changed the topic to something pleasant and light?

In the past she has said she wanted to be included in times you went out to dinner. Can you invite her out to dinner? or even, can you cook her a meal? Something to show her that you love her, have extraordinary care for her, and are committed to changing the behaviors that are making LB withdrawals.


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Because Dr. Harley's theory is that part of falling in love is caused by "false attribution" of exciting things you do together, there are definitely things that you can do to fall back in love, that require no talking whatsoever.

What would work best are activities, that are mentally and physically exciting, e.g.:

- sports (waterskiing, kajaking, learning horsebackriding, hiking)
- riding the roller coaster together
- going to a rock concert together
- going to a baseball game together and cheer on the team

or activities that let endorphines flow
- getting a massage together
- going to a spa
- enjoying an outdoor classic concert
- enjoying a boat tour in the moonlight

or are new, which makes the brain a tiny bit scared and happy to be with someone you know
- traveling to china
- traveling to foreign places
- taking a guided tour in another city
- sleeping in a tree-house
- a road tour where you sleep in another airbnb place every day (you would have to POJA to do that, so it may be risky).

Feeding a woman activates old, old circuits in the brain:
- take her to an intimate restaurant would be a mistake though, because you would have to do intimate conversation, instead, in this phase, you may go to:
- whodonit murder diner
- dinner dance
- dinner with music
- dinner on a ship where you are sightseeing - river boat dining
- any food place where there is something else to talk about than the two of you (Niagara falls etc).

Throw her a mega surprise party for her birthday, Thanksgiving, St. Anything day, whatever.

Doing nothing is not going to get you anywhere and is in effect sabotaging your marriage, which is not godly.
Do not talk about problems or anything other than the weather untill you feel better about one another.

Which one of the above ideas could you envision to do this Saturday?



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I think I am going to show this post to my husband, or rather, will surprise him with one of the above.


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Originally Posted by happyheart
I think I am going to show this post to my husband, or rather, will surprise him with one of the above.
Cool, Go for it.

BTW,

Last night she had class until 9:30 after working a whole day before that. I had made vegetarian pizza for son and I, saving 2-3 pieces for her. ( the best I could do to provide a dinner for her. )
Earlier in the day, I asked her to go lake boating Labor Day weekend as we have done for years. She said to go ahead invite another family and make my plans, and then she'll decide. (Understandably, she was tired after a long day.) Not quite POJA, but OK, I'll see if our usual boating friends are available.
Good Luck,
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Originally Posted by doesnt_want_meFL
Originally Posted by Remark
All,

No, I am not dating anyone else. I'd love to date my wife. I am desperately lonely as I know she is.

Our conversations seem fewer but long, unproductive and unpleasant. Instead of JD2D being my favorite person to do anything with, I have become more comfortable lonely not in her presence, than being lonely and feel despised in her presence. And, I dread conversations with her. I know her conversations, though unpleasant are her attempt to "reconcile". But they are so unproductive, and critical of me that I prefer being alone in my condo. I know I have a "plank in my eye. I don't need to hear about it so much. Most of our time is supposed to be pleasant. I literally get uncomfortable and sweaty when we talk. I am definitely NOT saying she is an "unreasonable cow". I am saying it's hard to imagine 15 hours a week when so much of our conversations now are about my "plank".

She also says I am a terrible communicator when I do attempt to communicate.

Her solution is to have no more conversations. I know no conversation is a recipe for failure. I know all negative conversation is a recipe for disaster as well. We cannot seem to find a balance where we enjoy each other, and spend enough time on problems to solve them. Any advice on this topic?

But, I have no real news to tell anyway. I know you would not approve of some of my activity where I went to visit my parents and brother who fixed my three bad teeth saving me $$$$, the weekend before last.

I continue to listen to the show everyday. Today's was very good. I related to the caller's husband who makes promises but wife doesn't see long term improvement. Dr H presented three "theories" on the husband. Motivation, passive aggressive, and a third one. I related not because I get angry or passive aggressive, but because I can commit to something ( like doing the grocery shopping [the example on the show]) but even after doing it for a couple or three weeks, forget about it for some unknown reason. The reason, in my case, is not because I didn't intend to do what I committed to. It's more likely that it got much more difficult than it seemed when I committed to doing it.

Anyway, that's where things are with us.

Thanks,
Remark

But Remark, these things go together. You continue to do things you know hurt her, and then expect to be able to have pleasant conversation. It doesn't matter if you talk to her about it, if she knows you did it, then you've hurt her, so then what do you have to talk about?

Can you start conversations about the pleasant things you are doing, that you know do NOT hurt her?Yes, I believe so. If she starts to bring up an unpleasant topic, have you respectfully said that the conversation is becoming unpleasant for you and then cheerfully changed the topic to something pleasant and light?That's sometimes a challenge as she I often hear comments that I have NOT answered her question, I've gone down a "rabbit trail", or similar. I'll try to say "this is unpleasant, let's change the topic", but I get suspect it may not be received well.

In the past she has said she wanted to be included in times you went out to dinner. Can you invite her out to dinner?Sure. or even, can you cook her a meal? Something to show her that you love her, have extraordinary care for her, and are committed to changing the behaviors that are making LB withdrawals.

Thanks, Remark

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Originally Posted by Remark
Earlier in the day, I asked her to go lake boating Labor Day weekend as we have done for years.
Remind me, Remark: does she love boating? Would that be her first choice of a lovely date?

(If you invite other friends it isn't a date, BTW. It might be a great day out, but it won't be a date, and you're supposed to be thinking of ways to date your wife.)


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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Remark
Earlier in the day, I asked her to go lake boating Labor Day weekend as we have done for years.
Remind me, Remark: does she love boating? Would that be her first choice of a lovely date?

(If you invite other friends it isn't a date, BTW. It might be a great day out, but it won't be a date, and you're supposed to be thinking of ways to date your wife.)

SC,
She likes boating, but admittedly, it is more my thing. Recall, she wants to keep the boat until son leaves the roost and was upset when I thought we should sell it now because we only use it once or twice a year.
RE:dating, I am establishing that I am "safe" to be around and therefore she might entertain dating. Similarly, I'd like to date a pleasant person. So, I create safe environments for those opportunities.
Thanks,
Remark
Thanks, Remark

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Originally Posted by Remark
She likes boating, but admittedly, it is more my thing. Recall, she wants to keep the boat until son leaves the roost and was upset when I thought we should sell it now because we only use it once or twice a year.
The point about selling the boat really has nothing to do with what I asked you.

What I'm trying to get you to establish is whether this would be a great day out, in her mind. I don't need to know that answer to that, but it's that sort of consideration you should be making when coming up with dating ideas.

I find it worrying that, having being encouraged by recent posts to try harder, the thing you suggest to your wife is something that you know is "your thing" rather than her thing, that you also enjoy. I find it worrying that your mind goes straight to a traditional activity - which means that you do this every year on this weekend, and so are NOT thinking of things to boost your marriage. It's disappointing that that you KNOW the boat has been the source of conflict in the past, and you know that an activity that involves friends is not a date, and yet you suggest this to your wife as a way of dragging your marriage out of its trough.

It seems to me that what you have really done, Remark, is to choose an activity of yours that you would have done anyway without your wife, and asked her if she wants to tag along, and called this an attempt at reviving the marriage.

It's less than half-hearted and it is a bit pathetic, really.

The fact that she said "go ahead and set it up with friends, and then I'll see" suggests to me that your wife isn't enthusiastic about this day out. Don't you see that? And therefore, doing as she said and setting it up is not your attempt to please her. It's disregarding her obvious lack of enthusiasm, while happily arranging something that you wanted to do anyway. If she goes along for the day you can put a tick on the "time with wife" chart, and if she doesn't, you can go anyway and have a great time doing what you love.

Really disappointing.


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Remark-
Labor Day is a week from now. It's Friday TODAY!!!
HappyHeart just gave you an AMAZING list of ideas.

Please try not to focus on the obstacles and negative interactions. Instead, try again and again to create positive experiences.

How about the world famous dinner and a movie?

Or movie and snack after? Can you prepare by looking up movie options and then inviting her for tonight or tomorrow?

No time for dinner? Pick up sandwiches to eat at the movie. Then take her out for yogurt afterwards and talk about the movie. If she likes affection then make sure to provide some comfort during the movie.

There are so many time windows over the weekend where this date idea will work. Are you the type that sees my proposed plan and thinks it would be awkward or weird to try it exactly as proposed?

Last edited by DidntQuit; 08/28/15 08:31 AM.
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DQ,

Pleasant conversation and POJA
Saturday, our son had a baseball game. JD2D and I sat together at his game. We had pleasant conversation for some time. I revisited a topic I had mentioned a couple of weeks earlier, the topic of going to the lake as we have done for 15 years, with our friends. (Our son has done it every Labor-Day weekend most of his life and he desperately wants to go. So, no it would not be a romantic date opportunity.) In any case, I had asked about earlier and she replied, "Make your plans and I'll see if I want to go." So, Saturday night, she said the same. I replied that I was asking her what her desires were trying to do POJA. She said I wasn't doing POJA. I asked "Why do you say that because I was exploring her thoughts and wishes on the topic." She said "I'm not supposed to teach you. Ask the forum."

Can someone help me, please? I'm asking her for her thoughts on the topic. I'm trying to frame the activity around those thoughts and desires. Labor Day weekend is a fixed time point that isn't going to move. What is she referring to?


The Coaching program
re: the question of pursuing the coaching program and whether she would do it with me. I asked her what her current position was on that. She said that ( and I had forgotten ) that we visited that issue with Steve Harley and he said he wouldn't recommend it us in our state.

Thanks,
Remark





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HH,
Please see reply to DidntQuit as it relates to your posting as well.
Thanks,
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Remark: "She said I wasn't doing POJA. I asked "Why do you say that because I was exploring her thoughts and wishes on the topic."

This is a statement which may come off as debate/argument format instead of exploration format.

I can only guess that she sees your first approach to the topic as more of a Decision on your part instead of an Idea of something you might like to do, with you including her in the thought process in embryo rather than after you have decided and set it in motion.

Had you mentioned the idea to son and friends already?

It should have been, "How would you feel about You and Me going boating with son over Labor Day?"

Then, if she had been enthusiastic with that, you could have asked,
"How would you feel about inviting our friends?"

Another possibility is that she found it argumentative or disrespectful when you brought up how it's a tradition and something you always do with son. That may be true, but saying that this is how we have always done it, is an example of persuasion instead of exploring her true feelings about the idea. Even bringing up the fact that she wanted to keep the boat would fall under arguing and would not be considered exploration. She may have felt like you were assuming her thoughts instead of genuinely asking her about them.

Making a statement is never an exploration.




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Originally Posted by Remark
The Coaching program
re: the question of pursuing the coaching program and whether she would do it with me. I asked her what her current position was on that. She said that ( and I had forgotten ) that we visited that issue with Steve Harley and he said he wouldn't recommend it us in our state.

Thanks,
Remark

So good job on bringing up the coaching program.

Then she reminded you of something that you had forgotten.
Next time, don't let it die there. Stay engaged!

"Dear wife, what do you think I can do to get there? Because I am forgetful but willing. I care about you and want to keep trying."

As a side note, Remark...Your wife watches your actions. She sees how serious you are when you follow up with your homework/calls with Steve and when you don't. Of course you will forget if you don't revisit it every day to remind yourself.

You need a written checklist of priorities for lunch hour and after work. Then make your actions match your checklist. Habits! If the first 3 things on the list don't include your wife/marriage then they will naturally disappear.




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Originally Posted by DidntQuit
Remark: "She said I wasn't doing POJA. I asked "Why do you say that because I was exploring her thoughts and wishes on the topic."

This is a statement which may come off as debate/argument format instead of exploration format.

I can only guess that she sees your first approach to the topic as more of a Decision on your part instead of an Idea of something you might like to do, with you including her in the thought process in embryo rather than after you have decided and set it in motion.

Had you mentioned the idea to son and friends already?

It should have been, "How would you feel about You and Me going boating with son over Labor Day?"

Then, if she had been enthusiastic with that, you could have asked,
"How would you feel about inviting our friends?"

I think DQ hit it on the head. This is exactly what my H sometimes does. We have had many a conversation about it, and his response is almost always "but if I didn't want your input, I wouldn't bring it up" or something that conveys that, and my response is "if you have already decided, what and how, it makes me feel like you just want me to say yes and I don't feel like I can actually say no. How would you feel about phrasing things differently from now on?" Perhaps this is how your wife feels.


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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by Remark
She likes boating, but admittedly, it is more my thing. Recall, she wants to keep the boat until son leaves the roost and was upset when I thought we should sell it now because we only use it once or twice a year.
The point about selling the boat really has nothing to do with what I asked you.

What I'm trying to get you to establish is whether this would be a great day out, in her mind. I don't need to know that answer to that, but it's that sort of consideration you should be making when coming up with dating ideas.

I find it worrying that, having being encouraged by recent posts to try harder, the thing you suggest to your wife is something that you know is "your thing" rather than her thing, that you also enjoy. I find it worrying that your mind goes straight to a traditional activity - which means that you do this every year on this weekend, and so are NOT thinking of things to boost your marriage. It's disappointing that that you KNOW the boat has been the source of conflict in the past, and you know that an activity that involves friends is not a date, and yet you suggest this to your wife as a way of dragging your marriage out of its trough.

It seems to me that what you have really done, Remark, is to choose an activity of yours that you would have done anyway without your wife, and asked her if she wants to tag along, and called this an attempt at reviving the marriage.

It's less than half-hearted and it is a bit pathetic, really.

The fact that she said "go ahead and set it up with friends, and then I'll see" suggests to me that your wife isn't enthusiastic about this day out. Don't you see that? And therefore, doing as she said and setting it up is not your attempt to please her. It's disregarding her obvious lack of enthusiasm, while happily arranging something that you wanted to do anyway. If she goes along for the day you can put a tick on the "time with wife" chart, and if she doesn't, you can go anyway and have a great time doing what you love.

Really disappointing.

Could you please share your thoughts about Sugarcane's post?

She brought up some important things and I'm not sure if you considered them, especially since you failed in the reapproach with your wife.

You are asking for help. This is good. But Sugar had already given you great help.

Now you need to find some way to positively internalize the help and change how you approach interactions with your wife. Don't get discouraged.

You need to schedule with Steve Harley NOW.

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I just reread my post and my written emphasis appears a bit harsh...so sorry.

Remark- Just remember that all of this effort will pay off one way or another.

I think that a call to Steve Harley would be super helpful for you right about now. I think that you could use some support and direction.




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Baseball game sounds like fun. As was said, you will probably make more love bank deposits by doing new and exciting things, than by doing things you have always done.


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Originally Posted by Remark
Can someone help me, please? I'm asking her for her thoughts on the topic. I'm trying to frame the activity around those thoughts and desires. Labor Day weekend is a fixed time point that isn't going to move. What is she referring to?
I did try to help you, and you haven't even acknowledged my post.


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Remark....

Is there a reason why you asked for help and now you aren't responding?

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