Which instance of abuse, exactly, are you guys referring to? Not all long, unproductive conversations involve abuse, right?

I'm completely confused about the direction of this thread.

Just because Remark is exhausted and worn out does not mean he is doing *anything* he has been assigned. It also doesn't mean he is being abused.

Of course his wife needs to eliminate her disrespect, her disrespect is plain to see- but what other abuse do we know about?

Remark self-reports that he 100% disregards POJA, he could start simply not doing stuff his wife has expressed her position about in the past even though she won't participate now.

This forum is to help current posters as well as lurkers. What articles, words of Dr Harley's or principles are you basing this advice on?

Please quote the section that describes the abuse that has suddenly absolved Remark and put the ball squarely in his wife's court?

Right. Why is Remark not being told to pull 100% of his own weight?

He is.

Which is what? Markos often describe how he wooed you while you were withdrawn and hostile and declined his invitations and tore up his love notes. Am I misremembering?

Remark isn't *doing* anything and every post drops with contempt for his wife.

He WAS. Now he's been let off the hook.

Remark is responsible for his behavior.

JD2D is responsible for her behavior.


Look at the article about Angry Outbursts.

No, he isn't.

Take a break.

The problem we as responding poster have is coming to care about a person's problem more than they do.

Remark has done a lot of things.

The most striking to me is how a few weeks ago he asked his wife out for their anniversary, proving that he is trying to work the program. She responded by suggesting they spend the time discussing divorce, proving that she will take every opportunity possible to hurt him and punish him for his failings and that she isn't listening to what we say at all.

In the article Dr. Harley describes an angry outburst as words designed to hurt your spouse. I'm simply saying that I missed where that happened and you guys apparently did not. (I still don't see it and you guys refuse to quote it)

I also had to come to a point where I started to do my part.
If I had continued in my demands, disrespect and anger, we would not have much of a marriage today (if we had one at all).

It isn't true that Remark isn't doing anything he has been assigned. He has made an enormous number of mistakes, but to say he has not tried and hasn't done anything and hasn't tried to win her over is just incredibly cruel to do to a person in an abused marriage.

We ought to be modelling for this couple how such statements are disrespectful and how marital problems need to be solved by removing such disrespectful statements from discourse.

If the genders were reversed in this marriage nobody would stand for anybody talking to a woman in this way.

Then maybe you should bow out since you are unaware of the facts of this couple's marriage and more interested in winning an argument with us than in helping this couple the way Dr. Harley would.

It is not our job to explain that to you. If you want to help this couple it's your job to be aware of the facts. If you cannot recognize his wife's abuse then you aren't able to help this couple with Marriage Builders.

Nobody has said any of that. Ever.

If you read his wife's thread she's very public about her relentless abuse of him, and you have become a collaborator with her in doing the same to him.

At the moment, folks, I am researching wild flowers; something she said would be extraordinary care to her.

I care. I'm just hard pressed to know how to impress her favorably these days. And, I am not up to arguing about everything.

I understand that people, any two people are going to disagree. I just don't enjoy or deal with with as well as most folks apparently.

We had this exchange today and she suggested I post it.

Remark: How would you feel about my folks coming down here the weekend of Sep 19-20 th ? ( I think I mentioned this already, but I�d like to clarify. )
JD2D: Yes, you did already mention that you already had plans for them coming down. I have no feelings about your independent lifestyle, as we are divorcing. (Marriage requires PoJA and this is not.)

Remark: How would you feel if I ran up to DSM again soon, as my cousin from Seattle, WA, sent me an e-mail asking what D & C�s plans are in September. He wants to make a surprise visit to see my folks in Sep?
J2D: I have no feelings about your independent lifestyle, as we are divorcing. (An independent lifestyle doesn't work in a healthy marriage.)

Remark:Also, Sunday, Sep 13 th is Mom's 70th birthday.
JD2D: Thank you for that information.

JD2D: Why don't you present these questions to the forum before you present them to me? I don't know why you're bothering to go thru the motions when you seem so indifferent to whether you're doing them right. The forum has given you tons of valuable information and you seem to just ignore it. If (the requirements of) marriage is this awkward/unnatural/unpleasant/difficult/distasteful/?? to you, why don't you just own that you're not interested in being married to me and embrace divorce? Your "words" simply aren't going to do it for you anymore, and the actions are non-existent.

And by the way, if you're going to quote "my words" on your posts, please use the correct ones. I said you're "not doing PoJA," I didn't say you don't know how.


Any POJA advice accepted. Thanks, Remark

Remark, if you want to keep your marriage, I would suggest you quit asking about things that aren't designed to make your wife happy. Don't just ask how she'd feel about something you want to do like have your parents over. Find something SHE'D like to do and propose that to her.

She doesn't like your family and feels that they have been disrespectful of her, so I wouldn't propose it again.

PLEASE support this member in his efforts to save his marriage.

If you find yourself unable to advise, support & encourage his efforts, please REFRAIN from posting!!