This sounds like you have some idea of what 'all in' is and what R could demonstrate to you. What is that?

What you said to DQ about posts to R being babysitting is dead on. While R needs the occasional post to remind him we're still here he needs to do this on his own without any babysitting, prodding or lovebusting. Working with Steve would be perfect and I hope he is.

Besides lovebusting being abuse of him - it also makes your dissatisfaction inevitable. Because lovebusting makes it impossible for him to look enthusiastic.

If I tap my watch and ask how long a meal is going to be - how does a waiter serve me enthusiastically? It looks like they are just trying to avoid complaints.

If I use a whip to get the pyramids built, how does the slave take an enthusiastic pride in his work?

You won't feel any more reassured of enthusiasm using lovebusters.

Examples are anything that is not pleasant or encouraging to Remark.

Examples which have prevented a plan A are: long and drawn out relationship talks, divorce discussion, any talk of what you have done measured against what he has done.

Hi jd2d-
A radio show that I think will really help you is now in the archives. July 23rd, with Alicia. There are some hidden gem ideas for you.

Thanks, will listen today.

D2D, I can't wait to hear what you think about this clip. This was my problem as well, I would follow the part of POJA where you don't do the things that annoy your spouse, but I never got good at respectfully agitating for the changes I needed. It was a big a-ha moment for me, I've come a LONG way, but there is still room for me to do this in my life, so my can continue to fit me better and better. These are great marriage habits, but they are amazing life-changing habits, too. I'm so glad you're still here!

Are you folks sure this is the right radio clip?

The caller is an attorney named Alisa and what I got out of the show was that she needs to learn to control angry outbursts when her husband won't listen to her and tries to control her. I listened for ideas on how to respectfully agitate for change but didn't pick anything up other than to try to negotiate and as you would with a client and never having AOs.

Thanks!

I haven't been on for a while, obviously. I happened to notice some recent activity on Remark's thread and thought I'd post an update, then you can do with it what you'd like. (BTW, have you been reading my mind again, SugarCane?)

First, DQ, I listened to the radio clip you referenced, but I admit my response was much like AnyWife's -- I didn't tie it in with the recent discussion. Of course, I always pull something out of the programs so it was hardly a waste of time listening, I just don't think I gleaned out of it what you hoped I might -- sorry.

Now for the update.

Some time back, Remark had purchased six sessions with Steve. The first we did together, the next two he did by himself. The fourth one we did together, and from it Steve concluded that my biggest issue is that I don't believe Remark is capable of changing, so he gave Mark an assignment to address this. A week later, Remark used the fifth session by himself as a follow-up to the assignment. After two more weeks, I asked Remark to see what he had done so far, since it was something he was supposed to be giving to me periodically and I had yet to see anything. I discovered that he hadn't done much of anything at all, just 3 rows (2 duplicate) on an excel spreadsheet. I was very disappointed and asked if we could use the last session with Steve together, which we did a few days later.

I expressed to Steve that the outcome of the assignment that he gave Remark to document his effort/changes actually had the opposite effect and reinforced my belief that he won't change. Remark pointed out the "tone" in my voice, indicating that that's what he has to deal with, and Steve didn't have a problem with it, recognizing that I sounded frustrated but had a reason to be. Steve pointed out that Remark's superficial (my word) statements weren't going to work anymore at this point, and that he needed to put some meat on them and have a plan. He also told Remark that the Harley rules are "absolute," and that there are no exceptions. Several other things were said that resulted in making Remark feel like Steve was "on my side," whereas I felt like Steve was just re-stating the Harley principles. Also, I asked him if he would advise the online coaching for us, and his answer was "no."

At the end of the call, Steve gave us the assignment of practicing the PoJA for several days and to give him a call back in a week, but that if it was going very poorly to call him sooner. Well it went very poorly, but Remark didn't want to pay for more sessions.

Willard had previously asked us to provide him with a written example of how we apply the PoJA, and with it Willard recognized and pointed out to Remark that he skips right on to brainstorming without ever getting my perspective, and that it's impossible for him to brainstorm mutually satisfying solutions when he doesn't even understand my perspective. In spite of that advice, Remark continued with this approach during our practice week. Since I'm not supposed to teach him, I suggested that he take his approach to the forum and ask them if it was appropriate. A few times he said he would but then forgot. Other times said he didn't want to because he knew what the forum was going to say and didn't want to hear it. In the end, the exercise was a bust and there was no follow-up call.

Since then, I've filed the D paperwork and am waiting for Remark to be served. He keeps saying he'd like to reconcile but there is absolutely no indication that my future marriage to him would be any different than my past. Our discussions that he describes as being so unproductive are truly unproductive, because we don't agree on the application of the Harley principles. For example, I try to tell him that he's living an independent lifestyle, and he says what he does now doesn't matter because I "kicked him out." Or when he tried to tell me that I need to not complain about everything that I don't like ("pick my battles") two days after a radio program where Dr. Harley explained that you should complain about everything that bothers you (he said it much better than I just did.) Since I'm not supposed to teach him and I'm tired of hearing him complain about the conversations, at this point I've just opted out of talking to him altogether.

Meanwhile, it's being suggested to him on his thread that he should try to date me and focus on pleasant times together. The problem is that I don't want to date him, and it's not because I'm in withdrawal. I don't want to fall back in love with him because he's not marriage material for me. He doesn't grasp the Harley principles. Our "unproductive discussions" are riddled with debates regarding our differing beliefs across the board. Our marriage won't work going forward because we still have exactly the same problems we've always had. Besides, I'm still low-man on the totem pole in regards to his entire extended family, and no amount of thoughtful dates or pleasant conversation will ever make that okay with me.

Thank you so much for filling us in, JD2D.

I will commenr about the radio show segment as soon as I get to a computer.

Just a observation: The reason why you dont want to date him is because you are in marital withdrawal. The stages of marriage (intimacy, conflict, withdrawl) are terms Harley designed to label a spouses emotional involvement in the marriage.
You say that hes not marriage material but technically you are still in marital withdrawl. Most spouses in withdrawl would probably say their spouse is not marriage material.

Neither do you.

JustDaytoDay,

A marriage cannot work unless the wife develops the belief that, no matter what, demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts cannot be tolerated in marriage.

My marriage finally turned around because Prisca developed this belief. It caused her to raise her standards for me drastically and also to alter her own behavior drastically.

Wouldn't independent behavior, annoying habits and dishonesty also be included in this list? Our notable decline started when when I raised my standards for Remark and determined his current behavior to be no longer acceptable. And I wasn't expecting perfection. I would have been happy if he had simply acquired the same level as me, because I know I'm not perfect either and outside of the Harley program, I would have thought that was typical/normal/doable. For me, it just needed to be fair, one way or the other. Remark is actually the one that re-introduced/suggested/pursued the Harley principles recently. It seems really odd to me that *I* need to set the bar to (demonstrate) perfection first, especially in light of the uneven yoke for most of our marriage. Why not the husband? Husbands are supposed to be the spiritual leaders of the family. Why not him? I would happily follow along behind him if he lead the way by demonstrating it first.

Because abuse is never an acceptable course of action

I thought I'd share something, but I'm also thankful for the anonymity of the internet because I'm somewhat embarrassed by it. And yet equally frustrated.

Last week, the office had a lunch and giveaway of the token items they get from vendors (mostly the Cardinal baseball team.) They set it up so that you got three tickets that you could put into any of a number of cups for a drawing for a particular item that you wanted. I put one in for a fleece jacket, one for something else I wanted, and one in for a power bank for a cell phone. I didn't want the cell bank for myself but thought Remark might because he seems to get quite stressed if his phone goes below about 90%. Anyway, I ended up winning the fleece jacket, which I was happy about because the office is always cold and it immediately felt good sitting in my lap. As the giveaway continued, my name was also pulled for the power bank but it was a one-win only option. I felt bad.

As the giveaway finished, the power bank ended up going to no one, and it and the other non-designated items were put in a pile. Then the remaining participants that didn't get something were given the option to pick something from the pile. The girl next to me was one of them. I told her that if she wanted the fleece, I would trade her if she picked the power bank, which she happily agreed.

Then, the CFO chimed in giving her grief and saying that SHE wanted the power bank, but the girl told her she had already bartered with ME. Eek! I'm a nobody at this company! The last thing I need is to be blacklisted by the CFO! If I had been smart, I would have brought it to her office after the lunch and left it on her desk, but I really wanted it for Remark.

Later on the way home, I started feeling really stupid. I jeopardized my position at work for a man that shows very little care for me at all, and one whom I'm in the process of divorcing. I tried to pawn it off on my son to give it to his dad for his birthday but he said he already gave him something. So I just gave it to him unceremoniously and was glad to be done with it.


Then, later in the week, I got to work and found tickets for Brad Paisley on my desk that I had apparently "won." ("won" = no one else in the department wanted them.) I'm not a country music fan so I passed them on. When I mentioned it to my son later, he was bummed and said I should have gotten them for him (nice idea, logistically no.) Later he mentioned it to his dad and said his dad went "ballistic" that I didn't get them. Who knew! In 21 years with the man, I've never heard him listen to anyone country besides Garth, and he's as much pop as country.

Anyway, today I walked into the office as they were giving away tickets for another country artist. I practically had to wrestle them away from another girl, making a point to tell everyone that my H "was very upset with me for not taking the last ones and I wasn't going to do that again!" I immediately texted Remark to let him know. He first asked me if I would go with him (Remark likes country, JD2D does not) but I said no. He then declined, saying he would rather go boating this weekend. So then I had to take the tickets back and felt like a fool for having made such a show of consideration for his stated interest only to be rejected anyway. I didn't give Remark the details of either of these.


This is not unusual for me. I feel like an idiot. I'm doing these things and it's said that I'm not showing extraordinary care, while Remark gives me his leftover pizza and is credited with doing "plan A."

Something is wrong with this picture.

Day, you are confusing sacrifice and mind-reading with extraordinary care. You didn't POJA the second set of tickets (or anything else) and you said disparaging things about Remark to your office mates (telling them he was mad). You are obviously in such incredible pain. I'm so sorry. You are giving up before you have even given change a chance. I totally understand that you need Remark to take the lead and he isn't. It's tragic to watch.

What a sad state of affairs. You don't seem to be in withdrawal. You either need to cut your losses and let go of this marriage or immerse yourself in Marriage Builders books and concepts.

If Remark is willing to continue with Steve would you be willing to do ANY work? Or are you done?

If you are done, for goodness sakes, stop sacrificing. It's not fair to anybody.

Also, Remark has been out of the house for 3 months now. He still has a bunch of stuff here. I've asked him politely numerous times to schedule a time to get it, and he says he will but ... well it's still here. I could tell him to get it out by x date or I'm going to give it away, but that would be a selfish demand, so I'm not doing that. Meanwhile, he's been picking up furniture in town for his place, bringing in furnishings from out of town, and buying/delivering furniture for his daughter's place. It makes me feel unimportant, like my inconvenience doesn't matter. But other than asking him 3 or 4 times to please pick it up, I haven't said anything, because somewhere in there, in telling him that I feel that way, I'm disrespectful and/or "abusive." So by saying nothing, I believe I can guarantee that I'm not being disrespectful.

On Saturday, Remark sat next to me at son's ballgame. He chatted about numerous things, by his choice, so I'm guessing it was pleasant for him. He did mention that he was unhappy that I didn't get the concert tickets last week. Then, Remark tried to discuss the weekend and boating again. I resisted saying anything but Remark insisted he was trying to apply the PoJA. I told him that it didn't work that way but that I'm not supposed to teach him and perhaps he could discuss it with the forum. The tone/mood took an immediately turn for the worse. Remark just shut down, no more pleasant conversation from him. Thankfully the game was over and we left. Other than my capitulating, I don't see a possible positive outcome.

In the last month, we've had one bout of a serious discussion, other than the assignment to practice the PoJA issued by Steve. So I'm not "abusing" him by talking with him.

I filed the D without further discussion with him because the forum said that was abusive. And then he was mad at me for not waiting for his paperwork.

He has point-blank told me that he won't do what the forum has suggested regarding his family, and has been heavily involved with them of late, with more get-togethers already posted on his calendar for next month. I say nothing.



What am I missing???

Deflection.

Everything you added doesn't change this fact:

A marriage cannot work unless the wife develops the belief that, no matter what, demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts cannot be tolerated in marriage.

You didn't try to POJA the country tickets either.

It sounds like you are still invested in the relationship. Perhaps you and Remark could POJA what to do if tickets to an event become available again. Discuss different events and venues, etc., that you could enjoy as a couple.

If either of you had Any AOs or DJs, say "I need a break," and go home.

The second set of tickets was PoJA'd on Saturday at the ballgame when Remark expressed his disappointment and said, "If you ever get the opportunity again, grab them," and I said, "Okay, I will."

Context is everything. I was actually self-deprecating, explaining that 21 years together and I had no idea he liked country music.

We talked with Dr. Harley a year and a half ago, with non-stop participation since. What kind of "chance" does change need?

And thus the question of what is wrong with me. I don't know why I keep engaging.

Steve never gave me any work to do. Except do some PoJA exercises, which I did.

There are 6 LBs. Why did you pick only 3?

I haven't posted in a month. What abuse am I still doing?