I'm a Betrayer and just read the whole of this Website. Over time a lot of things have become clearer, now that communication and understanding takes the place of guilt and recriminations. <P>It seems that there is a formula for getting into a mess like this and, thank goodness, a formula for getting out and back on track. Different characters with variations on the same theme, but generally the same deal.<P>I have left my Lover twice to return to my family. 1st time was for 3 months and second time for 1 month. I'm back with my Lover right now. Lot's of extra pain all round!<P>OUR FORMULA FOR GETTING INTO THE MESS<BR>Unfortunately, my wife and I didn't address some fundemental problems in our relationship before the affair: Within a year of having a second child, I had v.bad depression. One reason was my wife totally gave herself over to the kids. Probably because she had such a rough childhood herself. We never did things alone together cos she wouldn't allow baby-sitters and she just let herself go. I couldn't get into the whole parenting thing (something I'm still working on!) and stayed out on my own with friends. Both things that we're ready to work on now. Great.<P>Well, 6 months after the depression I met the Other Woman (OW) - co-worker. Good/bad timing! She filled all of the my missing emotional needs and voila, as we say here. It just took a few drinks too many in the bar after work one evening and you know what happened next.<P>WHAT DO I WANT TO DO NOW?<BR>Get back properly with my wife and kids. Why? Because I truly love my wife and kids and can't imagine living without them long-term. And I think we can resolve the original problems. By the same token, I think my Lover and I have a relationship built on very bad things that, despite it still being 'fun' now, 18 months later, would ultimately bring us all down, long-term.<P>SO WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE FORMULA FOR GETTING OUT OF THE MESS?<BR>Easy, when I go back to my family the original problems kick straight in and the 'withdrawal' from the Lover is especially frightening for me. So, I go running back to the Lover.<P>On top of that, the Lover and I still work in the same Company. So, the withdrawal never ends for either of us! <P>NEXT STEPS<BR>I have an interview tomorrow! Fingers crossed. (Too bad my Lover didn't get accepted for a couple of interviews herself...) But, my wife has run out of patience and doesn't want to hear it anymore. "It's now or never." Half my things are there and half over there and my Lover is looking for commitment from me. Ah, the lot of the confused Betrayer!<P>THE QUESTION<BR>So, I'm asking myself whether I should stall a little longer until I can get another job, or go back to my wife with extended painful withdrawal of seeing my ex-Lover every day, which will probably mean that my wife and I don't make it, no kidding.<P>Can you give me your objective thoughts and comments please.<P>Regards, Betrayer Trying get it right.

How about showing good will to your wife by breaking it off with OW and moving into your own place (neutral zone) for a while, at the same time getting whatever help you need, or taking whatever actions necessary to move toward saving your marriage.<P>As painful as this is for you, believe us, you wife is in excruciating pain as well, plus she is "holding down the fort". <P>You defined your problem. Living with your lover is selfish and cruel to all involved. Get ready to do the hard work.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm back with my Lover right now<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>NOTHING is gonna get resolved until you leave her. (but you know that, don't you?) <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Because I truly love my wife and kids and can't imagine living without them long-term. And I think we can resolve the original problems<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Very good place to start! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But, my wife has run out of patience and doesn't want to hear it anymore. "It's now or never."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Made p your mind yet? Better hurry or you're gonna lose a LOT! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, I'm asking myself whether I should stall a little longer until I can get another job, or go back to my wife with extended painful withdrawal of seeing my ex-Lover every day, which will probably mean that my wife and I don't make it, no kidding.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Do not say you won't make it. You're setting yourself up for defeat.<P>Yo know what you should do. You must STOP with the ow. Tell her it is over. You love your wife & you're gonna MAKE it work! Do not make it long and drag it out. Get to the point. Don't tell her you love her, you'll miss her and your thankful for everything you had. Just tell her it's over and you will NOT communicate with her AT ALL! IF you see her at work (sounds like you will at least for now) then do not acknowledge her. Just pass her by like any other person you don't know. Don't say good morning.<P>It'll be rough, but you HAVE to do it!<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

France.<BR>Totally agree with Faith Hope Love and Chris. I have nothing really to add. They said it all well.<P>Well, one thing to add but it really is a repeat. End it with the OW, Fast, Now, Immediately, Yesterday! You already stated that you know it will come to no good as in was conceived in no good.<P>Remember what ever pain you will go through in withdrawal, your wife has gone through much pain with great intensity too. More than you can ever imagine. <P>I will be praying for you.<P>By the way you have come to the right place to get the support and caring you need. Welcome! <P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us.<P>Samantha<BR>

Phew, wasn't expecting so many replies so quickly! <P>Chris, Faith Hope Love, Samatha,thank you all very much.<P>I guess it was just too naive of me to think that anyone was going say "Yeah France, drag it out until you get a new job".<BR> <BR>But I know the difference between 'dragging it out' -vs- massive concern for not having 'the right environment to finish properly with the Lover + rebuilding with my Wife'. And I feel as though I'm past the dragging it out stage, I have done that before so know what it feels like. My Lover and Wife are too fed up and I think it's not right to drag it out just for my own selfish reasons. It's not even fair on the Lover either! she needs a real companion as well.<P>But reading thru the website last night, it strikes me just how much Dr.Harley emphasizes that there will not be completion to the affair as long as we see eachother. Quote - "move States." And he's right! I know that many times over. I'm too vulnerable when going through withdrawal and she will not let go, believe me, it's actually scarey! And, by the same token, as long as I see her, I don't get thru the withdrawal, ever, and that simply doesn't create an environment for my wife and I to deposit love tokens or whatever. So, what's the point of going backwards Samantha?<P>This is not an excuse, it's a real concern, based on experience. No matter how strong and committed and clever I sound right now whilst w/Lover (cos that's the lifestyle I'm good at), when back with my Family, I'll be vulnerable and all too ready to ease my own pain...<BR>BUT I HOPE YOU"LL BE AROUND WHEN I DO GO BACK TO MY FAMILY!?!<P>The nuetral zone, again based from experience, is actually a comfort zone, where one gets the best of both worlds! and doesn't cause quite so much pain, until a 'decision' is sought again. Sorry, Faith Hope Love...<P>The issue again is what I wrote below. Back in '97 (aged 29) I had a terrible breakdown. Anti-depressants for 6 months. Seriously massive depression and my hair fell out in clumps. It was basically because I couldn't adjust to parenthood. Screaming kids, loss of my lover and friend and the life I'd known. <P>I never got a chance to address all of those things before the bloody Lover turned up. For what it's worth I tried to avoid it, had a friend go out with her! but she broker it off within a week for me. Had her sights set on the 'good-looking clever successful Manager party guy' and my ego ate it up. <P>So, can you imagine the sharp shock of going back to the family WITH the withdrawal from the Lover that I see every day!!!???!!! The slightest hint, let alone the big-time depression that it causes, has my head turning and my hair tumbling. I will not take anti-depressants again because of what it does to my sex drive and Councellors are a waste of time, just someone to cry to, I've found more constructive help on this Website. I know what I want to do and it kills me that I can't. Whether I give in and stay in bed and mope around or 'pretend' to be happy. I'm more worried about another breakdown than going back to the Lover. Fear of the 'known' is frightening. So, please answer that one Chris.<P>My wife and I have talked about this recently, she is so compassionate and ready to let me go rather than go through all of that again. And that only makes me see how incredibly amazing she is and how lucky I am. And I know that my withdrawal when she leaves me eventually would be even more accute. But if I can't make it past the first gate, what's the point!, might as well 'enjoy' life for a few months/years until she does leave me for another. Agh. My first posting on this Site was yesterday - asking if Betrayers have actually succeeded in being happy with the Lover long-term, that's how desperate the situation is.<P>I don't know what I want to hear back from you. Maybe this line of questioning is too hard for you in your positions. I do still know that I want my family back and I'm prepared to go thru withdrawal, but my wife and I don't want it to be forever due to me still working with the Lover, which could seriously cause another breakdown...<P>I just hope this interview goes well tomorrow!<P>Thank you all again<P>France<P>P.S. Samantha, I could not hold back the tears (in my office) when I read your last para to my Wife over the phone.<BR>

How are you financially? Could you quit work? And then look For another job. In another town? I know that these sound drastic, but you sound like you need something drastic to break this cycle. I only wished we could have done this. Think about it. If you can not break with the OW and you want to be with your wife then drastic measure aare waranted. Harley recommends this in his book. Have you read "Surviving and Affair"? You should.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

<B>So, can you imagine the sharp shock of going back to the family WITH the withdrawal from the Lover that I see every day!!!???!!!</B><BR>Can you imagine the pain & hurt your family will feel if you're not there either physically or emotionally (with the ow) though? I can. I'm doing it everyday! My oldest daughter (14) went from straight A the last three years to drinking & getting arrested, and is getting two F's, one D, two C's and one B, along with 16 absences in 50 school days!<P><B>The slightest hint, let alone the big-time depression that it causes, has my head turning and my hair tumbling.</B><BR>But you're totally happy now? I think not based on the fact that you are here and asking these questions.<P><B>I will not take anti-depressants again because of what it does to my sex drive</B><BR>How much sex are you having with your Wife? Sex is important to a relationship, but it is not the most important. If the communication is not there, sex means nothing at all.<P><B>and Councellors are a waste of time, just someone to cry to</B><BR>Depends on the counselor & the type of therapy they practice. The MB principles on this web site & which Harley uses are solution oriented. They focus in how to get where you're going not reliving the past & what has occurred. If you want a great counselor, then I highly recommend Steve Harley. 1-888-639-1639. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html</A> He knows what you are going through, having probably heard it all as far as relationships & affairs go. He knows what you need to do to get through it and to make the marriage everything it should be.<P><B>I've found more constructive help on this Website.</B>Which is why we are here. It works!<P><B>I know what I want to do and it kills me that I can't.</B><BR>What is it you want to do?<P><B>Whether I give in and stay in bed and mope around or 'pretend' to be happy.</B><BR>Give in? To what, your marriage? Remember, you freely chose this path (marriage). Think of it as "giving in" and you're only doomed to fail.<P><B>I'm more worried about another breakdown than going back to the Lover. Fear of the 'known' is frightening.</B><BR>But you know what you can expect, so it will be easier to be prepared for it. "The greatest fear is fear itself" as the saying goes. Jump on in head first and you'll eventually wonder what that was all about.<P>All this is gonna take plenty of work and will by no means be easy or fun (understatements?), but the outcome will be something to marvel at.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited November 09, 1999).]

France:<P>It seems that we all try to find the EASY way out. Sometimes you just can't do that. You just have to bite the bullet. I had "friendship" at work for a long time and then decided to stop. My W was more important to me. <P>I guess that's the first thing you have to determine. Which one is more important?" The go for it. If it's your W then you have to sit down and figure out what went wrong and fix it, then move on.<P>I find it hard to beleive that you would go into depression because your W gave herself to the kids, especially after only six months of having the second one. W who are mothers too, have to do that. Any guy with half a brain should know that. To go into depression indicates that you are a bit more into yourself and your own needs than that of your family and kids. That makes it much more difficult to get away from the OW. I can't even beleive that you are thinking about the OWs feelings in this matter. You might want to consider that you may very well have made a mess of both of their lives.<P>By the way, my OW works in the same building as I. I'm on the fifth floor and she's on the third. We gave it up nearly 15 years ago and we haven't said more than three words at a time (none of them meaningful)to each other since. <P>I beleive you need some help in figuring out exactly what is important to you and then you need help with a plan to pursue it. <P>But then again, that's just my opinion.<P>Flip

France,<BR>I admittedly have a bias toward your wife, because I can only imagine her pain.<P>Perhaps you did not understand my neutral zone. I just meant to get out of your lover's place immediately and end all contact. If you truly think going home would be too stessful and your chances of healing would decrease at home, then get your own place on a very temporary basis. Do everything you can to get a new job. Be totally accountable for your own behavior and do whatever it takes not to go back to OW. <P>It must be killing your wife, night after night, to know you are with that woman. You are eroding your chances of healing your marriage with every minute you drag this ugly mess out.<P>If you want your marriage, then your marriage must be your top priority. Not the feelings of OW, not your feelings, but your marriage. You need to move toward healing and there is not a chance in this world that sleeping in OW's bed one more night is going to help the healing process.<P>If you think it is, then you are fooling yourself and making a mockery of your wife and marriage big time.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FH&L<BR>You said it. And I'm a guy too.<BR>Flip[