Be strong, FG!! Show him some tough love and stick to your conditions.

His texts responding are at the end of page 10 of the thread.

Thanks for posting it, FG. He won't agree to your conditions until he is absolutely sure you are serious. You can show him that you are serious by refusing to compromise. Just as I thought, its all about him and his pity seeking. He has no care or comprehension of the hell he has put you through. So I assure you if you took him back now, you would be facing more of the same.

He doesn't' quite believe yet that you are serious.. YET. He is still hoping that he can manipulate you into feeling sorry for him and get you to make adjustments. However, the conditions you gave him are the minimum conditions needed to even have a marriage. If he won't address and resolve his drug addiction, his anger, and his pain issues, there is nothing here to restore. It is hopeless.

I would put this right back on him and assure him you are very, very serious. He needs to understand there is no room for negotiation here. I would send him something like this:

Thank you for your response. I appreciate the fact that you considered the suggestions made in my letter and respect the fact that you have rejected them. That is your prerogative. Just as it is my prerogative to choose how I will live. Those were the only conditions under which I would ever consider reconciliation. Since you have rejected them, I will explore other options.

I predict if you do that, he will start finding ways to meet those conditions. Right now he wants YOU to make all the adjustments and "compromises;" you need to hold his feet to the fire until he makes those adjustments. If he won't step up then you are better off without him.

Here's his reply to my letter (he finally got).

FG your list essentially tortures me for the rest of my life. And makes living thru this "separation" impossible even on a budget. Let alone divorce. I read your letter again. It's slanted, false in many points with lots of assumptions. And simply not a fair assessment. I'm not loaning out the car. I never thru anything at you. I can't afford what your asking. I won't be able to afford therapy, gas, food , doctors, car maintenance. Or even the bare necessities for that matter. I may have to live in my car homeless just to afford a couple things. I didn't injure foxy in anger. I was trying to swat her for biting me. If I'm thinking of the same injury. It ain't like I beat her senseless. You also left out EVERYTHING else that was apart of the true incidents. Like on the Halloween one. Even though I was wrong how I handled it, I did it in protection of my family from a bully. Your also thinking the only fault you had was not standing up for yourself. That's not the case at all. Before "seperation weekend" I had never did any name calling, never touched anyone - period, that I can remember. I think you want to have a happy family. But you love drama and money more than me. Your letter effectively sets the bar so high and perfect, it's out of my reach. Like your setting me up for failure just to get a divorce. Your expecting me to make all the effort and changes, and it's unrealistic. Your no compromise stance(?), marriages don't work that way. You blame me for all of everyone's problems. Your constant animosity towards me and being overly critical of everything ever associated with me is not going to make a happy family. Only go bad. Your current attitude is not conducive to repairing our relationship, it's poisoning everyone's hearts. I know for sure now you've been telling the kids stuff. They accidentally told me. That's gotta be why Son15 and Son12 won't talk to me and get my calls/texts but won't respond. Your wrong in a lot of ways here too. Equally if not more damaging as my temper because of the finality of it (divorce). The list effectively kills any chance at having a successful marriage/family. Almost 17 years only to fail. I'm not going to drag you down by listing all your failures. But everybody gets angry and has some irritating angry days. Your only looking at me thru anger and negativity. Nobody can promise they won't get angry ever again. With cooperation I can keep from blowing up. And I can be a lot happier with some simple fixes like, not ignoring me. Or showing interest in me. My family hurting me is a lot of my frustration. I could've left you when you came home from school (teaching) for years and was all mad. You've had plenty of freak outs. I just never even considered actually leaving because I was loyal and loved my family and didn't want to see that broken. Suboxone by itself isn't enough. But I'll do what I say I will. You know that.
Anyways, you've already taken all the savings/checking and who knows what's going on with the investments. That's kind of underhanded and selfish. I thought of that but never even considered it because it is compassion less and just not right. I'm going to get less of an inheritance because of all the money my folks have spent on us. Why is that ok? Hopefully you'll see how frustrating and impossible your "contract" is. Nobody else could do it either. Not honestly do it.
I can pretty well some up what else I need with, love and respect from you all. And I will do the same of course. Write me a compromise, or I can. I'd like to go from there...with something reasonable. I was honest here I'm sorry if your feelings got hurt that was not my intent.
Please don't leave! I sure do love you with all my heart. You are my sunshine my only sunshine...
This is destroying me. I didn't know you stopped loving me. Not before grandchildren. I can't stand to lose my family. It's all I care about. God help me please! Where are the people who love, ME? It's like living a nightmare, if only I'd wake up.

Looks like you have your answer. How do you feel about this?


I wanted to make the point that this advice comes from a man who has wrecked his marriage. He has no earthly idea how to fix a marriage. He only has a track record of wreckage.

Whereas, your plan gives him a path to a happy life and happy marriage. You cannot force him to take that path. Just as he cannot force you to live in a miserable, unhappy marriage.

I would stand your ground and do not waffle one single inch. It will take a firm stance for him to really believe you mean it. And maybe he will step up. If he doesn't, then you are better off without him.

Please note that he has made the lives of his family so miserable they can't bear to live with him, yet he is only concerned with himself. He is high on narcotics all the time so he doens't experience or understand the pain he causes to others.

If he really wants to save his family, he can change and stop hurting them. He can prove by his actions taht he cares. But you can see he does not care about you or your family, he only cares about himself.

Addicts are extremely self centered and only tend to see others in light of what they can GIVE TO HIM. This is why he is so blind to the hurt he causes others.

Your husband is a full fledged drug addict and you should see him in that light.

I think I have my answer. My only wavering is from some of the things he says. Maybe it's my personality, or maybe it's how I've become, but I start to believe the things he says. Like maybe it really is just as much my fault. I did have my fair share of "freak outs" which were usually yelling at the kids when I got home. I knew better than to "blame" anything on him and I would be so upset to come home and see they (he the responsible adult?) couldn't even get HW and chores done. And if I wasn't even yelling, just being a parent, he'd still react that I was "in a bad mood" and have an angry outburst. I had to come home to that, cook/get food, juggle sport practices, and grade papers/do lesson plans. I hated the dynamics which is one of the reasons I changed careers (I had to cut stress somewhere). He thought that would "fix" me and make me happy but our problems continued. And as my feelings disappeared and anger and resentment rose, I did behave critical towards him. I guess I can't come to terms with that.

Here is the difference.

You are facing your own faults head on. You are willing to change yourself and clean up your side of the street, avoid love busters and meet his needs, in order to have a good marriage.

He, on the other hand, is refusing to do the same. He is not willing to stop AO's and other love busters, or meet your needs. He is not willing to clean up his side of the street.

Of course you were responsible for your own bad behavior in the past. Marriage Builders does not focus on the past, if focuses on the present. He has an opportunity NOW to do what needs to be done to provide you with extraordinary care. He is opting to NOT to do that.

If you also were love busting and not meeting EN's, he could provide you with the same letter, couldn't he? He could also tell you, I need you to stop your abusive behaviors and start meeting my needs, and I will also do the same, because I want to have a loving marriage of extraordinary care. And you would have the choice to make the changes necessary to do that. I am assuming you would choose to do so, right? This is the option you have given him, and he has chosen NOT to make the changes necessary for that.

That was a masterful attempt at manipulation. But all those words boil down to him blaming you for the feelings caused by his anger.

There is NO compromise when your life is at risk. He has shown that he can't remember things he did in anger. If he had bothered to read MB material, he would know angry people don't remember their words or actions.

And he is not willing to give up drugs.

The arguing with you and trying to convince you that these steps are not necessary is a HUGE red flag -- he's not thinking about you or your family. He's thinking only of himself. A man who is serious about keeping his family will go to the end of the world to change himself to make that possible. He's not even willing to take the first steps.

Who knows, after he loses his family that may change. But he's made it very clear that he's not going to do anything about it until he's lost it all.

Don't coddle him. A wife really needs to hold the bar high when she has an abusive husband -- it's not only taking care of yourself and your kids, but it's the most caring thing to do for him. It's what gives him the chance to become the man he could be.

That is all nice and cute but has nothing to do with the price of tea of in China. I don't care if you were satan incarnate, the past is the past. What has to change is the present and the FUTURE. If you are to have a marriage, serious and radical changes need to take place. So far he is refusing. Rather, he is pointing the finger of blame AT YOU.

As long as he can successfully blame YOU for his drug addiction and his anger issues, he does not have to change. Let me assure you that you are not to blame for his drug addiction or his anger. He is 1000% responsible.

It not "compassionate" to take the blame for his addiction. IT IS ENABLING. And your enabling has made him a very bad man. IT is time to stop, my friend.

EVERY drug and alcohol addict will blame everyone for their addictions as long as they can get away with it. You do not do him or yourself any favors by allowing him to manipulate you by blaming you.

I say this as a fellow addict who has been sober for 30 years. Stop being punked and stop enabling him. Force him to make changes if he wants to stay in your life. You have all the leverage to do this for him. And if he won't change, then you should remove yourself from his circle of abuse permanently.

Guess you better do what it takes to keep your family, then.


Oh, well. Guess you better go along with it if you want to keep your family.


"I'm going to be eliminating angry outbursts and you're welcome to join me for a great marriage if you want to do what it takes to stay married to me."


The instructions are all here from Dr. Harley and he'd be happy to show you how to do it, but if you don't want to, you can't keep your wife and family.


Dr. Harley would be happy to show you how to make a marriage work this way.


No accident about it - if you want to be married to be and abuse me, the world will know; it's just the way I live.


If you'll eliminate your angry outbursts and quit using drugs I promise we'll have a great marriage. Dr. Harley will be happy to help you learn how to eliminate angry outbursts. I'll be eliminating them, too.


Doing it dishonestly would be a lot better than what we have now!


The only reasonable solution to me is that you eliminate angry outbursts and stop using drugs. My compromise is that if you do this, you can stay married to me and I promise you we'll have a great marriage.


If you want to stay married to me you'll need to learn how to avoid hurting my feelings, even accidentally.


My goodness! You probably better get busy eliminating angry outbursts and get off the drugs, then! Contact Dr. Harley for some help to make this as fast as possible.

Great responses, Markos!!

FG, please use some of the material you get here. You have been successfully gaslighted by an abusive addict for so long that you are truly struggling with your emotions. Let us help you with that. You are very foggy in your thinking because of this.

p.s. I would also look into Alanon. Your H's problem is his drug addiction and his anger management. Marriage is impossible with either. Those 2 issues have to be resolved before you even consider reconciling.

Thank you!!! I was about in tears reading your replies. Not because any of it about him hurts. I'd be fine if we divorced. All that's kept me is guilt, compassion, and knowledge that I contributed and haven't tried EVERYTHING. I was about in tears because y'all are right about me. I hate not trusting my own instincts and perceptions. And he still mocks me about that. I don't want to be this way and so far I'm not sure I could be different with him.

I am still seeing a therapist. I will look into AlAnon. Thanks.

hugs to you, my dear friend. It is heartbreaking to see how he has gaslighted you for years. Addicts are professional gaslighters, because their survival depends on it. If he can't successfully manipulate, gaslight and BLAME those around them, he will be forced to look at the man in the mirror. That is what your husband is frantically trying to avoid.

The most caring and compassionate thing you can do for this man is let him go and let him hit bottom. That is the only thing that will motivate him to change. He has a choice before him today; he can either lose his family or he can CHANGE. It is all on him. HE would rather manipulate you and force you to change if he can get away with it.

I never posted my whole letter to him because it's long. Here's a Dropbox link. Hopefully it works. This is what his reply I posted was in response to.

https://db.tt/7Muv8Dp8

You poor woman, I cannot believe what you and your children have endured. I am shocked.

What a brilliant and compelling letter you wrote. That letter was written by an intelligent, articulate woman. And here you are, second guessing yourself. Stay the course, my friend. You have absolutely done the right thing. I appreciate and respect the fact that you refuse to force your sons to see him. You correctly told your H that he needs to change his behavior if he wants to see them. That is exactly the message he needs to hear!

So very relieved you are separated. Stay the course and don't doubt yourself for 2 seconds. You are absolutely doing the right thing.

Reading that letter, it is obvious that you are going to survive this. You're a strong woman. Don't doubt it for a minute.