What you are doing now is wobbling and lurching back and forth. This does not present an attractive option for her. She needs someone to be stable and strong for her. Maybe you can't do that. I wouldn't be able to do it! The resentment that a betrayed spouse has to deal with is too much for some of us. BUT you need to make up your mind one way or the other because as of now, there is no plan here and just a lurching, rocking ship in stormy waters. You have to get a handle on YOURSELF.

zibbles.
I do get it. I really do. Plan A to present myself as the best option.
Plan B when I cannot plan A anymore.
I have gotten to the point where I don't want to plan A.
I will force myself to Plan A up through the time she comes back to FL. Should she choose to go back to CA I will not flip out or shame her.
I did slip up recently and let her know how bad she hurt me. What I have been through. I also laced all of that with disrespectful judgements, asking her if it was worth it, etc.

I honestly have to say that i feel like different on AD. I do not wallow in my misery. But on the flip side I am much more agitated by the affair. This is both good and bad. Before where I was so sad I couldnt begin to moveforward. Now i am mad at her about it. It literally happened overnight. After experiencing this I read up online on wellbutrin and many others say the same thing that they are agitated.
I will have to watch myself and practice controlling my emotions about the affair.
After finishing the book surviving an affair this morning I get the idea behind plan A and B.
You are right, plan C is where I just keep shaming her and she will never want to come back to that.
There is a lot of wisdom in these plans and to be honest i have read about them before quit a bit but it wasnt until I joined this forum and got feedback did I really start to understand it.
I always thought an an affair was something else entirely until it happened to me.
I'm sure I took a lot of love units out in my last text to her. I did get a lot off my chest, though i should have done a better job at love busting.
I have a lot to learn.
After reading wifedivorcing thread I saw he took his plan A like it was a game. I probably have too much emotion in it to be able to do that. I really should have been on ADs from the start.
You are right, if she wanted the relationship she would move mountains to have it. Just like she did to have her affair.

not to get off subject of plan A and B.

A good friend of mine went through an affair with his wife.
After about 6 months of her putting him through the ringer he stopped all contact for about a month and sent her separation papers.
once she got those she turned around and came back to him.

In Florida they don't have legal separation.
Do you think in my plan B I should have some drawn up to emphasize how serious I am.

Also, in our last communication she told me she regrets the affair. She shows no signs of stopping it though and blames me for it and is mad at me. I replied that if she doesn't want to have an affair then she shouldn't be married. That she should go back to CA with her maiden name and it wouldnt be an affair anymore.

This is the first time I brought any of it up. It is how i really feel. That if she goes back again, this being like the 7th time then I really will close the door on her.
I don't want to divorce her but I also don't want to be in limbo forever. When this first started I promised myself that i would stick it out. That all it was is a temporary setback and she just lost her way.

If she leaves to go back, file papers and have her served. Don't threaten it, just do it. It's ok to tell her how devastating her affair is to you but the disrespectful judgments have to stop.

I wouldn't be able to plan A. That's just me. Recovering from an affair is extremely difficult. If you think you're angry now, just wait. IF she comes back, you're going to struggle with even more anger. I'm not saying you should give up but if you an't control yourself now, close the door with a dark plan B.

She might come back. She might not. Plan B helps you prepare for either probability by keeping you sane. Try exercise as a way to deal with the agitation. Channel your energy back into improving your own life.

Whatever you do, pick a plan and be consistent. Pick a plan!!

You are right. I havent consistently picked a plan.
I was in plan A and then I did the 180.
The 180 really seemed like it was working so I continued it. Then I got on here and went back to telling her a few times I liked her contacting me, etc. Trying to get back into Plan A.

So this is what i have done so far:
July, aug, sept ----PLAN A
OCT-nov 10 ----The 180
nov 10- 17 ---- starting to reply to her messages
nov 17-29 ---- this is before she comes back
nov 29-dec 18 ---- she will be in florida where I am
dec 18-jan 3 ---- she will be in AK with her family
jan 3 and on ---- she will either be here in FL, CA with him, or AK with her parents

So this is the timeline.
i realize that I have not been consistent. I will take advice on what I need to do.
These AD's have been working a miracle and I am quite hopeful that I can let go of my ego and emotions long enough to do whatever it is I need to do. This timeline is quite literally my last shot. After that I do not have a plan as it all depends on what she does from there.
With the 180 I did see her pulling towards me, though she was still in the affair.She bagan texting my friends telling them I was the love of her life and she missed me terribly.

I also realize that I can plan A and still take some aspects of the 180 into it where I make myself appear more confident and I'm not following her around like a puppy.

My plan is to ride out whatever is going on until she gets into town. While she is in town and if it appears she wants to hang out and talk then I can plan A her so she knows I am a great option. I can do this while also still appearing quite confident and appearing like I am doing well for myself.
Once she leaves for AK I am a little lost. I guess i will have to figure out whether she says she wants to return home or not before leaving to AK.
If she goes back to CA then I close the door.

I know it seems like I am blogging, but this timeline will be my last attempt so I would like some ideas. There is no one best way to do anything and I realize that this is MB site which is cult-like in the approach and I respect that and the opinions here. The plan A-B is solid had I followed it. I did not.

So far with plan A all I have seen is me pushing her towards him. I realize that plan A will never make her come back. But plan B after plan A may wake her up.
But I didn't do that and I cannot change the past. I did plan A and then the 180 and then a little bit of small talk for a few days followed by telling her what she did to me and how much she hurt me in 2hrs of texting.

So.....
I got myself into a pickle here and I will have to figure out what to do.
If I don't plan A her while she is in town and she leaves and never comes back then i will forever wonder if I blew my last shot with her. So I feel I must do that. That is 12 days from now.

Any advice on how to come out of a 180 and into plan A?

Plan A is not plan doormat. Plan A means making yourself the most attractive option which includes confidence and you investing energy in making your life better so that you'll be more attractive. You seem to think plan A includes groveling and weakness. It does not. And I highly doubt that the time periods that you are including as plan A were a proper plan A. You were not emotionally in the right place to execute a good plan A and you had no plan to follow. You were lurching along.

If you can, do a strong plan A up and through her visit. IF YOU CAN. Also, IMO you are overestimating your ability to get through to her if you think that her quick visit back to town is a real opportunity to get her back. SHE MOVED AWAY TO A NEW STATE.

Let's get real. She is already gone. All you can do is give her one last great memory before you close the door. Then hope the affair dies a natural death and she comes to her senses in time to make it back to you before you move on. Emotionally, you're pretty frayed at this point so moving on once you get to plan B is more likely than you think.

Like some of our other posters who didn't have kids in the mix, plan B enabled them to feel better and extract themselves with grace. Some of them fought hard and couldn't imagine life without the WS but once they got into plan B, they discovered they were more than ready to get moving into something better.

Nothing depends on what she does unless she drop the affair partner, comes home immediately and commits to recovery. All you can do now is control your part. You are not waiting for her to do anything. You are following the plan and if she breezes through town, you immediately implement plan B and serve her with divorce papers. Start getting that set up now.

Gotcha.
I was groveling.
Not a good plan A.

I will do my best. When we first met she chased after me really hard. To be honest, I have never chased a woman and that has always made me the more attractive option.
I need to formulate a solid plan. I will leave her with that memory of me where I am attractive to her.
I have been hitting the gym. unfortunately it is a bit late. When we met I couldnt be big enough, and I was exceedingly muscular.
The guy she is with, about 75lbs lighter than me...
Thanks for your input. I like the part about if she breezes through town that I server her papers and plan B. Though she will breeze through town and head to AK. its from AK to where else after that concerns me. Maybe her having the papers over christmas and in AK will allow enough time for her to think it all over.
I hate the idea of divorce, but maybe it will wake her up. Its not something that I can take back.

Plan A and the 180 are completely incompatible plans. Do not mix and match plans -- they do not work together.

Don't count on it. Plan B does not typically win WWs back, so do not waste your time thinking of it as a tool to wake her up. Plan B is for you.

Plan A = be the best husband you can be
180 = be an aloof jerk and later when she wants nothing to do with you tell yourself "at least I wasn't a nice guy - there must be something wrong with her"

And Dr. Harley told you his Plan A was compatible with that? Or are you just MAKING STUFF UP?

I meant plan a and no groveling. Be the best I can be and present myself as such.
The 180 principals are the no groveling portion. Appear strong and confident.
I'm not going to act aloof or not nice.
My original plan A had me trying my absolute hardest to show her how much I understood what she was missing. Talking about past mistakes. Trying to understand her affair from her perspective.
None of these are bad things. And she did appreciate my efforts. But none of that attracted her back to me. I even went as far as paying her bills while she was living with him. Rediculous.
I will still show her that she is important but at the same time show her that I am no pushover.
I have started writing out what I need to do in certain circumstances when she is back so I can best prepare ahead of time. It will probably go totally different than I expect...
I will do my best to appear attractive to her. I know what she liked in me. The only things I was missing before w her was affection and conversation. Both of which I cannot give her while she is in CA but when she is back here I can do the conversation part no problem. As for the affection I will have to modify it because I really don't want to be affectionate towards her like I was. Maybe holding doors, complimenting her. Etc.
I am going to give this my best so any input is appreciated. Even if you don't agree. I need to hear it all.

I'm going to need a lot of help on my love busters.
I know what they are after the fact but during the heat of the moment and because I have so much pent up inside of me I don't even begin to know how to deal with them.
She hurt me so badly and I feel like I have to pretend that it does not matter.
This creates so much resentment inside of me that it builds and builds.
I need to let it out at some point but I really do not know how to go about it. The examples in all of the books make a lot of sense but when it comes to real life and my situation this has hurt me beyond what I feel like I know how to deal with.
I feel like I need a 3rd party around us to help us talk about all of this to keep me from love busting. (when she comes back) I do need to let it all out, but not in a love busting way.

By all means don't grovel or engage in relationship talk, but that is Plan A.

Are you listening to the Marriage Builders Radio show, daily? It is your best tool for getting educated in how to save your marriage.

I started listening 2 days ago on my way to work. I will continue everyday up until she comes into town.

I really said a lot of things in my last message rant to her. nornally its just a few texts here and there that mean nothing. This was a full blowout of everything. I feel like I should post it so i can get some perspective on where I said things wrong and what i can improve on.
I regret threatening divorce. First time I brought it up but I also feel that she needs to know if she just blows through town that I will proceed in that direction.
I dont want to force her, but at the same time I want her to realize the consequence. The one we are not mentioning. It would seem obvious to me. God do I hate this.
It seems like something so easy to fix. Stop the affair and come home. She told me she is going through hell. But those are just words, who knows the truth.

I hope you are talking about a "rant" that took place some time ago, because you have been told repeatedly to avoid lovebusters in Plan A and be as attractive as possible.

What scares me about you is that you seem to be continuing your failed path on the MrWalters Loose Cannon Plan. We can see how effective that has been thus far. I can understand you ignoring good advice if you a) had a plan that really worked and b) had a track record of success, but you don't.

If you are fat and want to be skinny, don't take weight loss advice from a fat man; take advice from a skinny man who knows how to lose weight. I see you using the failed "wisdom" of a fat man.

I was pretty good about avoiding love busters for the past 3 months. it was the last text I sent to her 3 days ago.
I could just as easily not talk about it and gloss over any of the bad things that I do but that will not help me.
Thats why I was trying to avoid communicating to her at all. I could feel it building up.
Since I joined this forum I have since tried reconnecting with her in plan A but find it exceedingly difficult.
I am now taking an anti anxiety to combat some of the effects of the AD. I hate having to be on any drugs but I have to tell you it really does make a 1000% difference in how I cope. Only thing it seems to make it where I am much more susceptible to anger instead of the misery I was in.
I have only ranted once since she started the affair. When i found out and exposed it to her I didnt even raise my voice. When she left I never said one bad word or raised my voice.
I was insanely calm... and this all still happened.

To be honest if I had an affair I would expect her to try to kill me and if she didnt I would wonder why not.
I know that this is more about me and less about her. All of my friends are against me getting back with her and think I should tell her off and forget about her. But those are my friends and they are not living my life. I have made the decision to try to stick it out.

I know I cannot afford to love bust in times like these. I also dont know how a person can maintain their sanity and hold everything back. It seems I must be mother Theresa and if that is the case I will try.

I don't have to do anything until the 29th. I have until then to prepare.

mrwalters, I don't think you are learning the Marriage Builders program.

I asked if you are listening to the daily radio show, and I don't see an answer.

You mention that you "found out and exposed it to her" and that doesn't even make sense since in Marriage Builders you don't expose the affair to the wayward spouse (because they already know they are having an affair!)

Steve Harley told me if I wanted to save my marriage I needed to "embark on a course of education," learning all I could about the Marriage Builders program and how to use it, from books, the website, etc., because we would need a lot of help to get the logic of the good marriage principles here to override our emotional reactions.

Learn Marriage Builders. Use Marriage Builders.

So.
even though this is very personal and I don't share it lightly I will post it for review.
I said a lot of it out of hurt and anger.
I'm sure I did a lot of damage with it, but at the same time I got off my chest some of the things I felt I needed to.


I am posting it to hold myself accountable so I can try to never do it again.
There are some really bad parts.
You can all go ahead and comment and say anything you want.


----
Go ahead and answer it.
You still are.
And you still plan on it
You are married. If you don't want to cheat then don't be married.
It's that simple *wifes name
I'm sure your dad is proud of you
No answer?
You can have an affair. Leave to ca. Lie. But you don't have it in you to pick up the phone.
I did have a role in your affair.
I was gone.
I didn't give you the affection you desperately needed. And when I was gone the conversation too
But that does not excuse you
If you don't want to have an affair then go back to CA as *maiden name.
Then you don't have to lie. You don't have to live a double life.
You can build your new future and stop holding onto being sad about what you did.
I'm tired of the whole thing
You were supposed to love me more than that.
And you can't stop your affair
Because you don't want to. It is that simple.
You could just as easily decide to live in AK, FL or CA. And you chose CA
It's not by accident.
I want you to
Answer me truthfully
Your affair made me sick.
You allowed a slime ball talk you out of your marriage.
I wonder if you think back to when you were married to me. When I would do anything and everything for you. When we took our vows.
And to when you decided you would throw it all away for him.

So I must ask.
Was it worth it?
This is a simple question *name.
Cat got your tongue?
You could have chosen to stay. To not lie.
To remain faithful after being unfaithful.
But you wanted the excitement of the affair. The life of CA with him. Doing *work together. *work together.
A match made in heaven.


So I need an answer.
An honest answer.
I didn't throw you under the bus. I didn't shame you. I didn't allow anyone to talk bad about you.
I said you were just lost. And I felt for you.
But I also allowed you to manipulate me. You knew you could do it because I loved you so much. You would use that against me to hold me down while you got to have an affair. All while not facing reality.
I'm not going to live my life regretting what you did.
It took me going into the deepest depression to finally come out and see it for what it is.

I've never cried so much.
So think about that next time you sleep with him.
I hope you are happy.
I hope your parents accept him. That *niece will not go by your example.

You are not lost. You are not confused.
You decided to have an affair and to trade your marriage for it.
You will never know how much you put me through. The depth of my depression. I couldn't see a way out.
I finally broke down and went to the doctor as a last resort.
All while you had your affair. I had to tell him what was happening for him to prescribe me anything. Just like the counseling.
When I first went into counseling I could stop crying. I sobbed so hard that I could t write my name on the patient form.
I simply could t believe that you could do that to me.
But after much time. Reading. I understand what happened.
That it happens just like this to so many people.
That you and I aren't too different to all the others that go through this. How it begins. How it escalates. And how you are the only one who can stop it. And also how you probably won't.
Most men love differently than me. I found that out too.
The counselor said I was an anomaly.
So go ahead and be mad at me.
Somewhere along the line *OM had to ask what kind of guy I was. He had to wonder what a husband would do to him.
So what did you tell him? That I was a pushover.
That I was in Florida and I could never go to ca
But I don't need to do anything to that slime ball.
Eventually if you haven't learned from your mistakes you will do the same to him.
And more than likely he will do the same to you.
After all. That's your love story. The one you will gloss over when anyone ever asks.
And best of all. Your parents know your love story too.

And *niece was involved in it because you put her in the middle of it too. She's not dumb.
They can all look up to their aunt *name
You will rewrite your story. But it is the rest of your life so you choose your path. I figured out I cannot do anything but torture myself trying and hoping you would change back into the girl who loved me.
You are killing me.
You killed me
You destroyed me
You will never know what you did to me.
I had to suffer everyday.
Everyday wake up knowing you were with someone else. Sleeping with him.
While I tried and pleaded. Worked on me.
I must have read 10,000 pages
Lost so much hair that I had to get pills and special shampoo to stop it

None of this is not true
You acted like you liked me. Like you were happy to see me. All the while planning on your affair.
You were deep into your affair before you ever saw me in AK.
I am so sorry I messed up up there. That I could t voice what was happening. That I took it out on you.
But.
You were already planning on it. Even then.
And somehow I knew something was wrong.
I could feel it.
You don't need to play victim. You choose your path.
I could t look at all your posts anymore.
What did *best friends name say when you told her.
Or did you gloss over it. Tell her the version that is acceptable but hides the truth
What you wanted was to leave to ca. Push me down so hard that I just receded back. And then eventually say you met him. Then go on living happily ever after
But I messed it up by telling your dad.
You would ask my friends down here how I was to gauge on whether they knew and what I told them.
So manipulative
You did so much that I wonder how I could have ever missed that in you.
That you are capable of lying and cheating on the person who loves you the most.
Yes I cheated once years before we got married. It was the worst thing I have ever done. I realized it so fast that I couldn't run far enough away from me. That's how I know I wouldn't do it again.
You on the other hand. You cheated and then planned on doing it as much as you could.
So much in fact that you realized that you would have to move to ca to continue.
You worked it out daily. How you would do it. What you could do. The best way to manipulate me.
And now that you are there. I'm wondering.
Is it everything you hoped and dreamed.
You traded someone you knew without doubt would be there for you for the rest of your life. Someone who loved your whole family and was there for you through everything.
Traded him in for an affair.
You are textbook affair wayward spouse.
There are thousands just like you doing this very same thing.
I should have affair proofed our marriage.
I never suspected it was possible.
I should have learned your needs and listened to what you had to say when you told me you were missing them. I should have never allowed a job to take me away from home and you no matter what the pay.
I'm certain that if I did my part correctly then you would have never strayed.
And the thing is. I know all of this now. After the fact. Everyday on my way to work I listen to 45 minutes of audio on marriages and relationships. At work I read when I can.
I speak to a counselor.
Because I was determined to find out what happened. How this could happen to us. How my wife could ever do this.
And so many others have asked the same questions.
They had good wifes and good husbands too.
And it all follows a very predictable pattern.
And by reading all of that and studying I know exactly how I fall in love too.
Just as you fell in love with OM.
Because you wouldn't have given up a marriage for anything less.

Yes I'm mad. And I've finally said the things I've been holding back.
The things that have woken me up at 5am every morning.
I also know that you are going to cry on OMs shoulder over all of this.
That this will push you two closer together.
But that had been your choice. Had you not left to be in an affair we would have been over your infidelity long long ago. And I would have realized just how much I had to lose by not meeting your needs.
That's why I got you flowers. Gave you notes.
But you were in the middle of an affair. So you would not accept it. Those needs were being met by him. And they say that everyrime a spouse says "yes I see the change and it is positive, but it is too late" then that means there is an affair going on everytime.
I should have know.

Because had I done those things last year you would have been so excited.
I so wanted to see you light up and be happy.
It's also why whenever I took a picture of the two of us you pretended to not be happy and make a fake smile. That way if I posted it you could tell him you were with your awful husband and you really wanted to be with him.
Don't think I didn't notice.
This affair has brought out some of the very worst things in you. Especially towerds me. Your husband.
I don't want to kill you (earlier she said "you're killing me"). But I also can't hold in all of this anymore. It made me sick.
You did the worst thing a person can do to anyone.

I lost me. I couldn't see a future.
And now I have constant migraines from my medicine
But I'll take that anyday over the cloud that surrounded me.
That's the reason I can even say any of this. I am no longer a pushover. The cloud is gone.
I don't want to say anything bad or mean to you.
I've been holding it all in.
Just like you held in your needs. And finally you broke.
I'm sorry for being so critical of your weight *name. It was dumb. Beyond dumb.
Had I known what I know now I would have been supportive. Just like you mentioned so many times.
Sure. Maybe you would have never changed. But I should have accepted that.
Because now I realize that all in all it was so small compared to everything. That you were the girl of my dreams in just about every way, only that you were over weight.
And honestly. Had I accepted that I could have been with you through it. Maybe it would have never changed but at least you wouldn't think I loved you conditionally. I loved you through your affair. The worst thing you could do to me.
We both hurt each other very deeply.
Mine was first.
So I do Accept that.
Whole heartedly I accept that and I won't ask you to forgive me today.
Because I know it scarred you. And I wish beyond wish that I could heal those scars.
You scarred me too. I will never be the same after all of this. No matter what the outcome.
But I don't need the back and forth. You don't know what you are doing. You are lost. Etc.
if you want to be with OM then be with OM.
Don't feel bad about it and don't lie to me about it.
I'll find someone else. I'm picky, but I'll find a great person.
I've met some great people but I am still in love with you.
I'll do what's best for me and you do what's best for you.
I'm not making any decisions today.
You have made some life changing decisions based upon emotion and w no plan.
That's why you are still married to me and also having an affair.
No person would ever rationally choose that life.
I'm sorry about that. I wish I could have stopped you, that I could have protected you from this. That I stepped up and made you know without a doubt that I was your life mate.
But because we were married I took you for granted. I allowed my affection to slip. I allowed communication to go down the drains.
I love busted with disrespectful judgements and criticism. Sometimes angry outbursts.

So I accept that I played a huge role in it too.
I will not accept what you did. That was your choice. You could have chosen to tell me. To step up and let me know how serious it was. I would have been heart broken. But you wouldn't have put me through all of this and you wouldn't be living in CA with some bum who isn't your husband. All of this pain could have been avoided.
Our marriage wouldnt be on defcon 9 and threatened to the very core.
But the fact is that that did not happen.

And we are here now
And no amount of pretending that it is ok or will go away on its own will change it.
Oh. And even though I know your talk about my personality disorder was all "fog babble" and only a diversion to the fact that you were not going to allow me to tell you you could not have your affair.

The drugs I am taking do affect that. Just in case you are wondering.

I know that affairs are addictive. That they are hard to stop. That's why when people have them they throw their lives away.
See a pattern?!
No one would ever choose an affair. Though that's exactly what they do when they don't say no to it.
So even though i am mad at you. And I am hurt. I also know that you did not want this outcome.
I'm not excusing it. But someday when I talk about it in the distant future I can talk about it like it was a fact of my life.
I am now no longer accepting it by pretending it isn't there. That was the very worst.
But before you go off and say that I said I don't love you. That is not true.
Think about it.
If I did this to you and you tried and tried as hard as I did.
Read about what I was missing and made a promise to yourself that you would get down to the bottom of it no matter what.
Would you do that for me?
You don't need to answer. Just think about how hard and how much you would have to love me to do that.
And then realize that is how much I love you.
But at the same time I only have so much heart to break.
You have shattered mine over and over and over again

I'm tired of being scared of losing you.
I'm sorry that you felt that way about me for so long. That I didn't tell you in a way you would fully hear
Me that I was dedicated to you.

You messed up *name.
Don't tell me you are sorry for your affair. You can't be sorry for something that you are still doing and you know it.
What you probably mean is that you are sorry for starting it and now you want it, but you don't know how to tell me that. You'd rather have me keep guessing so you can continue it for as long as possible. Because you don't see a way out of it cleanly.
And there is no clean way out.
You have to make your choices.

I'm getting tired.
I'm done ranting.
I wish we could have a real conversation but it is not possible when this is all going on.
You know that. That's why you only text me. It's impersonal.
Which sucks.
Because you are living with OM. And you do a whole lot more than text.
So figure out what you want. Stop playing victim.
I'm sorry for making you cry. I'll send you a picture of your cat. (she always asks for pics of them)
Don't take that as me accepting you not having to be honest with me.
I'm not that person anymore.
We were supposed to love each other for the rest of our lives.
That is not possible with an ongoing Affair.
Good night Amanda. I am falling asleep. Tell OM I said Hi.


---------------------------------
All of this was text messages over the course of an an hour.
SO, let me know the good, the bad, the ugly.

yes. 4 months ago when I found out I told her I knew about her affair...

that was long before marriage builders or anything.
You seem to think I would have known about marriage builders or affairs the day I found out about the affair.
I realize that affairs are what marriage builders is about, and this forum.
But prior to the day I found out it would be pretty hard to know about a plan of what to do and what not to do according to this site without a crystal ball.

You're not going to make it.