tamak, this is your Cliff's Notes version of Marriage Builders right there. Just focus on these few things MelodyLane has listed. Make those the highest priority.

Yep - they are better, too. For my first year of doing Marriage Builders I was using an old version of Love Busters that didn't have everything I needed to know about eliminating angry outbursts in it.

Your situation was discussed on the radio show.
Radio Clip about tamak's situation

We finally have some down time today. We have to jump back in the saddle tomorrow because we have a lot to do to get ready for a holiday I'd prefer to skip this year, our youngest daughter's baby shower and getting stuff ready to move into our new place before my husband has to go back to work. For the first time in months, we have our house to ourselves. I'm hoping my husband will be open to spending the day together, just relaxing and maybe trying to get to know one another a little again.

As far as dates....I am guilty of not always dressing attractively. Since he didn't seem to notice most of the time, I quit putting in the effort, unless I just wanted to feel pretty because I needed to for me. I will start putting in the effort for him again and hope he starts to notice. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea, before a date, for me to make a list of positive, possible conversation starters for when there is a lull of awkwardness?



I didn't realize....thanks for the tip. I'll order new copies.

How does this work? I have attempted to not debate with him, by telling him I'm not going to argue the point with him, yet I always end up doing it anyway, when he repeats himself over and over and doesn't move on from it.

It will be like reading it for the first time. I'm looking forward reading the updated versions

Thank you for sharing this with me. Even though my H and I have already come to an understanding about the issue, it helps knowing Dr. Harley agrees he should have come to me and given me the choice to decide what to tell my daughter. Especially since we have agreed to follow the MB program. I have my beliefs on what was right, but do want to make sure I am doing what is right within the program.

It works like this...

Don't stay to hear it repeated over and over. Walk away.

Say ok, goodbye, and hang up the phone.

You can't reason someone into respecting your point of view and perspective by force. Either they choose to or they choose not to. If a spouse will not negotiate for a mutually pleasing solution, that's their choice. You can't force them to care for you.

If they choose not to negotiate after a period of trying then you read Dr Harleys article When To Call It Quits. That's more of a hope and solution than trying to force him to consider you by arguing the point.

I tried this yesterday and it worked. Thanks for the suggestion

Yesterday was a nice, relaxing day with my H, although we didn't really have any UA time in the way I hoped. We watched several movies, sitting in our separate recliners. I get that it will take time for us to get to a place of better UA time and closeness. I accept that. What I struggle to understand and accept is my H told me this morning that while I was sleeping last night, he rubbed my back and hair, because I looked so beautiful sleeping. We lazed in bed and watched another movie. We were laying close to each other, without really being affectionate. It was nice, don't get me wrong, but when I got up to get dressed (we had lunch plans with our youngest daughter) he reached for me, after I was out of bed and said he was about to rub my back again. Its like he waits till I'm not aware or am physically out of reach, to be affectionate. I don't understand that and asked him about it. He just laughed and said yeah he guess he does that. Isn't that kind of strange?

Get rid of the recliners or put them in another room.

They create an intentional, lack of physical contact style of living, where neither of you can enjoy a casual spontaneous affectionate clasping of your hands, or a brief brush stroke of easing your hair out of your face or a nice quick shoulder and neck massage.

Sit next to each other, without suffocating each others space, so that spontaneous moments can be taken advantage of.

LTL

I'm feeling confused and defeated tonight. My H started reverting back to IB and barely acknowledging my existence again today. I brought each occurrence to his attention as soon as it happened and said I was not enthusiastic about it and found it annoying. Each time, he apologized, said now that he was aware it wouldn't happen again, but it continued. We had dinner and hung out with another couple, who are close friends of ours. At one point, I felt so unbelievably invisible to my H, I wanted to throw something at him just so he would remember I was in the room. Our woman friend's SO asked her if she wanted a beer and my H jumped up and said he would go get her one. They have a refrigerated cooler outside on their patio they keep drinks in. He didn't look at me or ask me if I needed one, which I did. I refrained from throwing anything, just got up and went out to get my own beer. He did offer to get me one, when he saw me headed out, on his way back in, but it just annoyed me more. I pointed out the slight. He denied it, said I shook my head no at him that I didn't need a beer. I denied that since I waited, watching him to see if he would ask if I wanted one, too. I refused to argue the point.

Later, the woman friend and I were out on the patio smoking a cigarette and the men were inside watching MMA fights. She knows what has been going on between us and I told her where we currently were with things. That I asked him to look for a new job, because I believe it is the only chance we have a reconnecting and rebuilding our relationship. She didn't come out and say it, but I could tell she thought I was being unreasonable in that request. She brought up the fact that we had another friend and her daughter living with us for a couple of months until she found a place to live after she left her abusive husband. She said I needed to focus on one thing at a time, like not having other people live with us, so my H and I would have our home and time, just the two of us to figure things out. I reminded her that the other friend had moved out over a month ago and my H and I had already agreed, we weren't allowing anyone else to move in again. She kept repeating the point that I needed to stop letting people move in with us and that needed to be my main focus. I pointed out, #1 that was a moot point because that issue had already been dealt with. It is now just me and my H and will remain just the two of us and #2 my H invited that friend to move in with us, I didn't. I backed him up, because she was in dire straights. But he was the one who told her to move in with her daughter, right then, that night.

This happens a lot. Somehow, no matter what reality is my H is considered the great guy and I'm the unreasonable and unfair ball and chain, with most of our family and friends. I know it shouldn't matter, but its frustrating. In fact, the only one of our friends who really understands the reality of how things really are, is the one who recently moved out. She was here every day for 2 months and saw it, firsthand. She told me repeatedly, she doesn't know how I have dealt with things as they are for so long. It has been a relief to finally have someone I don't feel I have to defend myself to for a change.

The confusing part is after my H and I got home, he did a 180 and started being overly sweet and accommodating.

Days like this leave me feeling unsettled and unsure. Am I being unreasonable in my requests of my H? Am I being unreasonable in what I want in our relationship? And I don't know how to accept my H's sweetness and accommodating behavior after hours of neglect and IB. It may be hard to understand, but sometimes, like tonight, his sweet and accommodating behavior almost feels like IB, too. He's does things for me, whether I want him to or not. I believe his heart is in the right place, but it just feels wrong.

I know according to MB, I'm not being unreasonable asking my H to stop IB and change jobs. But its hard after a day like today to believe in it 100%

Did you tell your H how you felt last night?

tamak, I view all this as a needless distraction from the main problem. Stay focused on getting him home for good and please stop squandering your free time with other people. You need to be out with your husband ALONE.

And if he ever invites someone to live with you, put a stop to it immediately!

No I didn't tell him. I thought it would start an argument and I really wasn't in the mood to deal with that.

I did get back on track today. I asked my H if he would listen to a radio archive about POJA with me. He agreed. I listened to it for the first time with him, so I was surprised to realize how appropriate it was for our situation. 2 men had emailed about how they were blindsided when their wives told them they weren't in love with them any more. Dr. Harley said most likely on the men's side it was a lack of negotiating and not communicating well and on the women's side it was capitulation due to not wanting to cause conflict.

He could have been talking about us. When the show was over, my H said he was guilty of everything Dr. Harley said the men did wrong. I said I was guilty of capitulating up until the last year.

I downloaded the newest version of Lovebusters on our joint Kindle account. He said he will read it again. I also ordered the HN/HN DVDs, which came in today for after we finish Lovebusters. I asked him if he's been on MB at all since we agreed to follow the program. He said yes, but didn't elaborate so I don't know what he read or how much.



I have been the main problem about this. He is the one who invited the most recent friend to live with us. However, over the last 5 years, I took in a friend of our oldest daughters who had a friend with her, our middle daughter's boyfriend, who had a bad situation at home, an acquaintance that moved back after being gone for a few months and had trouble finding a job at first, and our middle daughter and her and her fianc�. I realize now, the reason I kept allowing people to move in was because I was lonely with my H gone so much and trying to fill a void.

Now that I am aware of why I was doing it and I have the history of why its a bad idea, I won't be doing it again. My H said he doesn't want anyone else living with us again, so I don't believe he will invite anyone else to live with us, again, either.

As far as us spending time together alone, I know we need to. Over the last few years we have just become more comfortable around other people than just by ourselves. We have fun when we're with our friends. We don't have fun when its just the two of us. I hope we can get to a point where this is not the case.

Awesome!


It will become easier with practice. It takes 15 hours to maintain romantic love and 20-25 hours of undivided attention to CREATE. You and your husband should be scheduling the latter. Do you have the worksheet? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/FiveSteps_Time_for_Undivided_Attention_Worksheet.pdf

Update...

My H and I have negotiated a trial of sorts concerning UA time and his job. The discussions about him changing jobs were causing severe withdrawals from his love bank and he was withdrawing more and I was withdrawing more as a result. What we negotiated is not 100% MB policy.

I believe where there is the will, there is a way. I lost my will for a long time, but its coming back. Listening to the MB radio shows have been very helpful. I've quit laying all the blame at my H's feet and started taking ownership of things I've done, and not done, that have contributed to our problems.

My biggest failing has been resentful complacency. I blamed my H for pushing me aside or wanting me to sit on the sidelines of his life. He didn't hold a gun to my head. I chose to sit there and then stew about it, till I got fed up and lashed out with AOs.

Realizing there are some changes I can make that can have a positive impact gave me the will to try. We were working together to dig water and sewer line ditches. It was the first time in too long, we worked together in that way. It was really nice and made deposits in my lovebank. My H has a tendency to treat me like a china doll. He doesn't want me to do much of anything, wants to do everything for me, even wanting me to wait till he is home so he can do them for me, instead of doing for myself. I realized that was one of the reasons I dreaded him coming home. I like to do for myself and/or help him with what needs doing, even when it means hard physical labor, like shovel work filling in a ditch.

Working side by side with him was great. We joked around with each other and we connected. It wasn't really UA time, because we weren't able to focus on one another or even talk a whole lot, since we were often too far away from each other, or couldn't hear each other over the noise of the backhoe. But it still deposited love units for both of us. That got me to thinking maybe if we were creative in how we approached UA time when he's at work, we could make it work without him changing jobs, at least for now. We did agree we are tabling that discussion but do plan to revisit it.

What we came up with is a very reasonable and doable list of things we can do to stay connected and make time for each other, when he is at work, as well as when he is home.

One of the things he did when he worked in Alaska, when we dated that I loved was call me every morning to say good morning and every night to say good night. He said he wanted to start and end every day hearing my voice if he couldn't see me.

That is the first thing we negotiated and he agreed to start doing again.
He also agreed he will make time where he can focus 100% on me. I agreed I care more about the quality of time than the length.
I love when he sends me flowers. He agreed to send me flowers once a month.
When we dated, he wrote me letters every day. I loved it. He agreed to send me letters again and I agreed to be reasonable in my expectations of how often he sends them.
We agreed to have a date night at least once a week, where we focus 100% on each other, mostly when he's home, but since he works a little over an hour away close to a city, there will be times we can meet for dinner. We've agreed to take advantage every time the chance is available.
We've agreed to stay home more, instead of constantly going and blowing.
We've agreed to work on our property and building our home together and find ways to bond/connect as we work.
We discussed things we can do together as UA time when he is home. Fun things where we interact with one another.
We agreed to eat at home more, cooking and cleaning up together.
We've agreed to start saving the money we won't be spending going out so much and put it towards our new home.

Like I said, I know these are not completely MB approved UA time, but it is a plan. The first one we've negotiated where both of us are enthusiastic, which does meet MB POJA requirements. And we have agreed the UA time is the only area we are willing to be creative. We are still going to work the MB program. My H has agreed to continue listening to MB radio, even while at work and filling out the questionnaires with me after we complete LoveBusters.

My H went back to work 2 days ago. He's on the night shift right now, so my morning is his night. Luckily, I am a night owl so this is not an issue for us. He has called me at the start and end of each day. I feel connected and have not thought about divorce in several days. Also, my H's father had 2 strokes in the same week. After the first one, my H was still closed off to me and kept me at arm's length. My heart was breaking for him, but he wouldn't let me in. The 2nd one was the day he had to go back to work. He opened himself up and let me in to share his grief and worry. He held me close and let me comfort him.

Progress

We will keep this issue front and center until it is resolved. Because everything else you do will be window dressing and will never lead to a romantic, integrated marriage. If your husband will not find a job that complements your marriage, by being home every night, then you should consider separation until he does.

You may want to "table" the issue, but we will not becuase this is the key to recovering your marriage. It is the ENTIRE reason you have been on this forum for 13 years with no improvement.

So, let us know when this issue is resolved so we can help you move forward. There is nothing to discuss here until there is a clear plan to resolve the problem.

It absolutely does not meet the conditions of the POJA. The POJA does not apply to decisions that are destructive to marriage. Living apart due to his job is destructive to your marriage. And nothng will change until that is fixed.