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Originally Posted by typicalman
. Even if she wanted to continue to stay at home but have more control over the finances, I have said sure... lets work on it together, but then she just goes off and we never talk again.


Why don't you bring it up again? It's just as important to you right?

Originally Posted by typicalman
What seems to me is that she has picked this lifestyle, and had this fantasy about happy she would be and she wanted the best of all worlds.. stay at home mom, but have tons of money, go to the beach everyday, have complete feeling of independence etc... that's kinda how life was set up for her in our prior state.. but the real world is really not like that. She seems to want to blame me for all her unhappiness.


I don't see any reason why she should not be happy in her work, remuneration, location, or lifestyle! Aren't you?

Did you tell her before marriage you wanted this for her or did you forewarn her to expect the 'Real World' with you?

I think perhaps we might be talking about your unhappiness and sacrifice and an expectation she should share it.

But MB eliminates sacrifice instead of spreading it around.




What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by typicalman
. Even if she wanted to continue to stay at home but have more control over the finances, I have said sure... lets work on it together, but then she just goes off and we never talk again.


Why don't you bring it up again? It's just as important to you right?

Originally Posted by typicalman
What seems to me is that she has picked this lifestyle, and had this fantasy about happy she would be and she wanted the best of all worlds.. stay at home mom, but have tons of money, go to the beach everyday, have complete feeling of independence etc... that's kinda how life was set up for her in our prior state.. but the real world is really not like that. She seems to want to blame me for all her unhappiness.


I don't see any reason why she should not be happy in her work, remuneration, location, or lifestyle! Aren't you?

Did you tell her before marriage you wanted this for her or did you forewarn her to expect the 'Real World' with you?

I think perhaps we might be talking about your unhappiness and sacrifice and an expectation she should share it.

But MB eliminates sacrifice instead of spreading it around.

Prior to marriage she was a hard worker. She did want to stay home, but she was also willing to do the home economics thing and make some sacrafices to do so. It's true that I did not put as much value in what she was doing. I would come home to the house a mess, kids running wild, bounced checks, etc.. when she left, and I was alone with the kids.. I worked full time, took care of the kids, they were happier, more well behaved, the house was cleaner, my spending was way down... it left me asking myself.. what was she doing?

I really want a partner in life and not someone that just wants to be a drain on me. Originally, when we first married, and before kids, she did feel like a partner.

I sleep about 5 hours a night and she sleeps about 10. I became heartbroken by how little she did and how poorly she has been raising the children.

She does feel entitled to 100% of everything, not 50%... and I need to put in 200% to enable her to sit on the couch, watch TV, go to the beach, etc... I could never say this to her, but it did make it hard to treat her with as much respect as I probably could have. All I asked for was an equal partner in life but I feel like I got a spoiled teenager instead. I know asking her to work is a lovebuster... but my view was that not working was more of a luxury than an entitlement. I was proud to be able to provide that life for her and happy that I was making her happy. Now, I 'm some kind of abusive monster for giving her this gift.

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
Originally Posted by typicalman
. Even if she wanted to continue to stay at home but have more control over the finances, I have said sure... lets work on it together, but then she just goes off and we never talk again.


Why don't you bring it up again? It's just as important to you right?

Originally Posted by typicalman
What seems to me is that she has picked this lifestyle, and had this fantasy about happy she would be and she wanted the best of all worlds.. stay at home mom, but have tons of money, go to the beach everyday, have complete feeling of independence etc... that's kinda how life was set up for her in our prior state.. but the real world is really not like that. She seems to want to blame me for all her unhappiness.


I don't see any reason why she should not be happy in her work, remuneration, location, or lifestyle! Aren't you?

Did you tell her before marriage you wanted this for her or did you forewarn her to expect the 'Real World' with you?

I think perhaps we might be talking about your unhappiness and sacrifice and an expectation she should share it.

But MB eliminates sacrifice instead of spreading it around.

YES! My expectation before marriage is that we would work together as a team. Neither sacrafice.. but rather work together toward a mutual goal. Where did all this entitlement stuff come from?

Oh, and I would bring it up... I would say, let's sit at the computer tonight and go over the finances... but she would always say she didn't have time because there is an important TV show on. She could only talk during the commercial. If the commercial is over mid sentence, I get cut off mid sentence and have to start over at the next commercial.

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Originally Posted by typicalman
All I asked for was an equal partner in life but I feel like I got a spoiled teenager instead.


You created the spoiled teenager. Can you see how that happened? Instead of making her your partner, you controlled everything and demanded gratitude.

What you should have done is POJAed your spending, her spending and the management of the household finances. Instead you required her to justify her spending but never yours. Then when she complained, you threw the entire management of the household budget at her. Of course she failed at that (you knew she would) and it was back to being a teenager again.

But you can stop treating her as a teenager. If she is watching television instead of making dinner, tell her that you would like to be her cooking partner, would now be a good time to go to the kitchen together?

If you want to talk about the budget, ask her when would be good for her. Make the discussion pleasant. She may not want to sit at your computer. I know that for me paper works better. She may prefer just to talk with no paper at all. Ask her respectfully and tell her you would value her input.


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If you haven't listened to Friday's show, now would be a good time. Dr. Harley discussed logic and the put-falls of presenting your view-point as the logical one. Essentially, all logic is based on assumptions; two people can reach perfectly logical, different conclusions if their assumptions are different.

Also, comparing the cleanliness of house of a stay-at-home parent to one of working parent is unfair. Why? Because the most of messes happen at daycare for the working parent. I've seen my sister have to clean 4-5 times a day when her kids stay home all day.

This is also why I would never be a stay-in-home parent. Everyone judges harshly and tends to think You are lazy if the house and kids aren't perfect. Plus, You are vulnerable financially.

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I should also note that my sister has OCD. I don't think cleaning your house 5 times per day is normal.

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Originally Posted by apples123
If you haven't listened to Friday's show, now would be a good time. Dr. Harley discussed logic and the put-falls of presenting your view-point as the logical one. Essentially, all logic is based on assumptions; two people can reach perfectly logical, different conclusions if their assumptions are different.

Also, comparing the cleanliness of house of a stay-at-home parent to one of working parent is unfair. Why? Because the most of messes happen at daycare for the working parent. I've seen my sister have to clean 4-5 times a day when her kids stay home all day.

This is also why I would never be a stay-in-home parent. Everyone judges harshly and tends to think You are lazy if the house and kids aren't perfect. Plus, You are vulnerable financially.

Ok..yes, I understand. I think the point is that I do NOT really appreciate her staying at home is something to make her happy. I sacrafice a clean house and financially to do this for her. I see now the problem where we never did this in a way that would make me happy too, but I took pleasure in thinking I was making her happy.

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Originally Posted by living_well
Originally Posted by typicalman
All I asked for was an equal partner in life but I feel like I got a spoiled teenager instead.


You created the spoiled teenager. Can you see how that happened? Instead of making her your partner, you controlled everything and demanded gratitude.

What you should have done is POJAed your spending, her spending and the management of the household finances. Instead you required her to justify her spending but never yours. Then when she complained, you threw the entire management of the household budget at her. Of course she failed at that (you knew she would) and it was back to being a teenager again.

But you can stop treating her as a teenager. If she is watching television instead of making dinner, tell her that you would like to be her cooking partner, would now be a good time to go to the kitchen together?

If you want to talk about the budget, ask her when would be good for her. Make the discussion pleasant. She may not want to sit at your computer. I know that for me paper works better. She may prefer just to talk with no paper at all. Ask her respectfully and tell her you would value her input.


We DID start that way... following POJA...when kids came she just didn't want to talk anymore.. she said she had no time for it... consequently, things began to spiral in the direction where we are today. Children became #1 and POJA, and meeting needs and everything else just took a back seat.

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Ok... plan A is going good. We went to church together.. I bought her a coffee, I told her she looks nice... she said "not so bad yourself".. I gave her a forehead kiss. We are having this financial and stay at home mom discussion on the forum, but the reality is that divorce solves none of these problems for her. The OM solves none of these problems for her... if I treat her half way decent.. staying married to me is really in her best interest. I can't change the past and I can't teach her to manage the family finances overnight. Financial support was NOT one of her top 5 emotional needs... and I am doing very well at meeting her top 3.. family support, conversation, admiration.

I think we started the right way with the POJA in our marriage, but we had children very quickly. by the time the second child came which was also about the time we moved she just decided there was no there was no more time for POJA, meeting my needs was last on her priority list, and we end up where we are. Her solution to the problem ultimately was to reach out to an opposite sex friend which became an affair. I am now trying to clean up this mess

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I think you are definitely doing some aspects really well.... But this focus on what you think's best for her, and big relationship issues right now, are a worry.

You are trying to run before you can walk. None of those issues can be tackled now and you can resolve them later by following this program in recovery and learning to poja together. You can learn how to do poja on your end here and ensure you don't commit IB with the money. In the meantime you have more than enough to do by eliminating lovebusters, especially DJs. Which is always job#1.

Disrespect is the toughest one to learn.

Yeah it's sad you two didn't get to learn negotiationing skills about the budget before now. Sad you fell into the common pitfalls of kids come first, and I'll sacrifice for you. But that's not the job of the day. Job of the day is don't say DJs like "Gosh only 100pc access to all the money would satisfy you!"

Instead of, "yeah you should have a say 100pc of the time. That's totally understandable".

Eliminate lovebusters, meet needs, wait out the A. Thats it. Put the rest in a box with any expectations you have of her.

That requires patience and acceptance. It does not require you talking about what her best move is (but it might require you presenting yourself as such over time) or how to revolutionize her plans or relationship attitude overnight.


Originally Posted by typicalman
I can't teach her to manage the family finances overnight.


Just woefully disrespectful! You don't teach EVER, you poja.

Originally Posted by typicalman
. Financial support was NOT one of her top 5 emotional needs... and I am doing very well at meeting her top 3.. family support, conversation, admiration.


Anyone who is a full time parent/wants to return to study etc, has this need, however high up. It's not an intimate need but you'd notice the lack if you had it. Like with all needs it must be met cheerfully and enthusiastically to have any effect. When she says you were controlling the money what she means is she felt you gave her entitlement of funds in a grudging way and she didn't feel there was enthusiastic provision from you. Which I think you'd accept because you weren't happy, you were sacrificing.

You'd have the need yourself if you lost your job. You'd expect your wife to continue allowing you access to funds.

Think how you would feel if you were out of work, even for a short time, but this was used to express that you were undeserving of a say, or that you needed to be taught how to budget, simply because she had a job?

You've a long way to go with DJs. I'd listen to the radio every day if I were you. Avoid heavy life changing talks.



What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Absolutely, I agree with the DJ's.. I see it now. it was very subtle, but my instinct is to lecture and pontificate to try to get her to see things my way. It rarely works.

With regards to my income, I really need to be honest here about my feelings. POJA is the ONLY way this is going to work in the long run.

Firstly.. I feel like my income is my "body".. it's my time, my toil, my sweat and my tears. I worked hard and saved, sacrificed my body and mind BEFORE we were married so that I can have the income that I have today.

I feel like a woman would feel if a man felt entitled to sexual fulfillment from his wife even if he mistreated her and he could just take it any time he wanted to. Hey... half of it is mine, right??? no, it's actually basically rape. That is really how I feel.. a wife that sits home cheating on me, doing nothing to meet any of my needs, and abusing me constantly.. just to take my money which comes from my life and body feels to me like "rape" ... I feel completely taken advantage of, disrespected, and used. This sounds extreme.. .but THOSE ARE THE REAL FEELINGS I HAVE BEEN LIVING WITH. I want to give my wife my income because she is a good wife and she loves me and I love her... but without that love, I just don't want to.

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I know it doesn't sound like alot of money, but I have paid ALL the bills, we are together alot and I am buying her things every time she asks, and taking her and the kids out to dinner several times a week.. it all adds up.

The real problem here is to restore this love. My wife never fell in love with me because I gave her all my money... but I did take care of her, I did spend all my time with her, and we were friends... The real problem is that all went away with the kids... we do almost nothing together just the two of us.

We just went out again tonight... we all had such a fun time.. We are still having alot of fun together, it's just that the kids are with us. The financial stuff didn't really start becoming a problem until AFTER she stopped spending time with me for a while... our relationship just needs love in it to grease the wheels or every little thing turns into a major problem.

I could give her my entire paycheck for a couple months.. but ultimately.. even if I don't, all the bills get paid, she gets everything she wants, and this is really not the main issue... it's not the reason we fell in love. When we first met and my wife worked, we had things in common.. we could meet up after work and appreciate having someone to talk to. I really don't think it's the financial support that is the problem but rather a symptom of us not being in love... she would not care about the money if we were in love. Her love bank is closed to me for some reason despite how much fun we are having together, how great a dad I am, how many compliments I give her... It seems that this affair she had made her just put my love bank so far in the negative it's taking a heroic effort to claw my way back up.

Basically now, I'm giving her everything she wants. I can really feel that I completely through her off guard.. when the next day after she asked for divorce.. I woke up with a smile.. took her and the kids out for dinner, and have gone on to continue to cheerfully continue to do everything as a family. I told her I wasn't mad that she took our money.. and if she runs out or needs anything.. just let me know.

I am trying really hard to stop lecturing... relationship talks will do nothing good. I will keep going... when I kissed her forehead today, she leaned towards me to be kissed as if she knew it was coming instead of pulling away. I can feel some small amount of deposits must be getting through.

I also was looking at my wife's facebook page.. the pictures that she was posting 4 years ago were some pictures from our wedding.. EXCEPT I was not in the pictures and the other man was in one of the pictures. How does that make me feel.. I have been disregarded as her husband for years I think and this affair has probably been building much longer than maybe I realize. Who would post wedding pictures.. but not include their husband in the picture???

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
I think you are definitely doing some aspects really well.... But this focus on what you think's best for her, and big relationship issues right now, are a worry.

You are trying to run before you can walk. None of those issues can be tackled now and you can resolve them later by following this program in recovery and learning to poja together. You can learn how to do poja on your end here and ensure you don't commit IB with the money. In the meantime you have more than enough to do by eliminating lovebusters, especially DJs. Which is always job#1.

Disrespect is the toughest one to learn.

Yeah it's sad you two didn't get to learn negotiationing skills about the budget before now. Sad you fell into the common pitfalls of kids come first, and I'll sacrifice for you. But that's not the job of the day. Job of the day is don't say DJs like "Gosh only 100pc access to all the money would satisfy you!"

Instead of, "yeah you should have a say 100pc of the time. That's totally understandable".

Eliminate lovebusters, meet needs, wait out the A. Thats it. Put the rest in a box with any expectations you have of her.

That requires patience and acceptance. It does not require you talking about what her best move is (but it might require you presenting yourself as such over time) or how to revolutionize her plans or relationship attitude overnight.


Originally Posted by typicalman
I can't teach her to manage the family finances overnight.


Just woefully disrespectful! You don't teach EVER, you poja.

Originally Posted by typicalman
. Financial support was NOT one of her top 5 emotional needs... and I am doing very well at meeting her top 3.. family support, conversation, admiration.


Anyone who is a full time parent/wants to return to study etc, has this need, however high up. It's not an intimate need but you'd notice the lack if you had it. Like with all needs it must be met cheerfully and enthusiastically to have any effect. When she says you were controlling the money what she means is she felt you gave her entitlement of funds in a grudging way and she didn't feel there was enthusiastic provision from you. Which I think you'd accept because you weren't happy, you were sacrificing.

You'd have the need yourself if you lost your job. You'd expect your wife to continue allowing you access to funds.

Think how you would feel if you were out of work, even for a short time, but this was used to express that you were undeserving of a say, or that you needed to be taught how to budget, simply because she had a job?

You've a long way to go with DJs. I'd listen to the radio every day if I were you. Avoid heavy life changing talks.

THANK YOU! this is great.. I was trying to do too much at once.

With regard to being out of work.. I personally could NEVER feel good about being dependent on someone else. In this way, I cannot relate at all to my wife. At a young age, I vowed to work hard and never be dependent. I would always have enough saved that even if i did lose my job, I would not be dependent. I could just never live that way. My mom made a comment to me..."I have never met someone as happy to be dependent on someone else as your wife"... she is just so different from me in this way, it will be hard for me to understand her perspective so I don't really put myself in her shoes... i just can't... I would never put myself in that situation.

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In terms of having access to funds.. if I were to try to put myself in my wife's shoes, I would think the following:

My Husband is too controlling with all the money, this has been going on for a long time and he is a big Jerk. I've found this other guy who really seems to care about me more so eventually, I need to get away from this guy (my husband).

My first step will be to go back to work part time and start working on my skills.. eventually, I want to be independent and not living hand to mouth with this horrible jerk of a husband I have.

OK... now I have separated from my Husband... oh shoot.. I forgot about this part about supporting myself. We'll he has the kids, I'm alone in this apartment.. I'm going to go get whatever kind of job I can.. plus, it's boring just sitting at home all day doing nothing.

Did any of this happen???? NO!
My wife never even gave a thought about making herself independent so she could separate from me... instead, her strategy was to "play the victim" with her mom, so her mom basically paid her bills for her. She didn't try to get a job.. she went to the beach every day. A couple times, she got on an airplane, flew 200 miles, saw the kids for about 30 min.. then raided the house for more beach towels. I am completely serious... this is exactly what happened.

Can anyone really identify with my wife's behavior? This is why the Judge seemed annoyed with her when he asked her what she had been doing.. I think he basically shook his head.

Anyway.. the weekend ended good. I went to see her before I went to bed last night and we just chatted like friends. She did not bring up divorce or anything. I do think she is expecting me to just take care of it... but for now, I won't waist any more energy on the divorce.. just love bank deposits and love busters.

I wanted to ask about another love buster we have.. see next post

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The next love buster she complains about is angry outbursts... but this is tough.. let me explain.

She will be extremely harsh and abusive to me.. .eventually, I feel hurt and sad. My face might change. I might get quiet. I might leave and go to another room to just be sad and regain my composure.

She will say "are you done throwing your tantrum?".. .You are "passive aggressive"... "you need to say you are sorry for yelling at me"

The thing is.. I DIDN'T yell... I might have said please stop, or that hurts me... but I did not yell and I did not have a tantrum. I WAS JUST HURT BY HER! She cannot see the part where she hurt me she only sees the part where my happy disposition changes. She tells me that I am having an angry outburst or temper.

Does anyone know why she sees it that way? What am I doing wrong? How could I react better to the hurtful things she does and says?

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When she is being abusive, don't sit there and take it. Walk away immediately.

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Your wife is the one who determines if you have angry outbursts, not you. So if she says you've had one, you need to take it seriously.


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In terms of having access to funds.. if I were to try to put myself in my wife's shoes, I would think the following:
You did not marry you.
And, like it or not, financial support is a biggie for a majority of women (even those with careers of their own).
Don't judge her for that.


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Originally Posted by Prisca
Your wife is the one who determines if you have angry outbursts, not you. So if she says you've had one, you need to take it seriously.

YES!!! so what do I do?

Walking away IS an angry outburst
being quiet is an angry outburst
telling her to please stop is an angry outburst

so, OK, I can no longer do any of these things.. but DO I do?

Should I take it with a smile?

Maybe after really being hurt... i will just say "my you look really nice today"... I have kinda tried that and she accuses me of being sarcastic..

Maybe I should just train myself to completely take it and have no reaction... "could you pass the potato chips?"

what do you think? what should I do????

When she really attacks me hard.. I feel that flight or fight response in my blood... I know that I need to take a deep breath, time out, etc... but I can't do any of these things without it being an angry outburst.. so WHAT DO I DO???

When she attacks me.. I usually don't say "please stop".. this typically happens when she is abusing the children and I feel the need to protect them.

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Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
In terms of having access to funds.. if I were to try to put myself in my wife's shoes, I would think the following:
You did not marry you.
And, like it or not, financial support is a biggie for a majority of women (even those with careers of their own).
Don't judge her for that.

OK, but this is where we really get stuck.. the financial support need is really hard to meet without the POJA... without the POJA, I am in a NO WIN situation.. here is the conversation that we had;

a) I give her all the money, then we run out of money and the bills can't all get paid.. services get just off, checks bounce.. she is extremely upset and blames me.
b) if that happens, she will say.. i counted on YOU to protect us and manage this..
c) I say.. OK, I will protect us and manage the finances so we will be taken care of. In order to do that.. here is all we can afford this month for you to spend and I can get all the other bills paid
d) she says you are too controlling with the money.. I want all of it.
e) I say fine... you can have access to all the money, but lets do this together so that we can get everything paid. Lets pay our bills together. lets follow the POJA
f) She says.. .see you don't care about me.. you read about POJA in some stupid book...stop reading books and listen to me instead.
g) OK.. I will listen to you.. how would you like to manage it, please tell me what you think?
h) No, you just don't care about me.. we can't talk about this anymore.

This is how it goes... WHAT DO I DO???


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