You started this thread in 2011 with the title "Well ... I'm back ... unfortunately." You've used a version of that title at least once more, and here you are again today.

It's time to start doing something different, unless you want to accept that your marriage will always be...unfortunate.

Thanks SC.

I totally agree with doing something different. I'm stuck in this mode of asking her to make changes and her defending her position, putting things back on me, deflecting, or what have you.

Reading Dr Harley's stance on addiction makes perfect sense to me.

I've asked her again the last couple of days to quit drinking for us and she skirts around the issue. Stating she can control her drinking and states she proved it to me this weekend (ahem) by only having one beer Friday and then a few beers with friends Saturday afternoon but didn't drink once she came home.

She hasn't came right out and said it but I don't think she's going to quit drinking. I haven't even asked about getting her some help because I don't think she's ready to admit she needs it. Nothing new here of course if she's an alcoholic.
So, the only thing I can think of doing differently is to separate. It's a huge step and admittedly one I am terrified to take.

However the drinking causes me to withdraw from her so I'm prone to do something to make this dynamic change.

Did you read Dr Harley's suggestion of an intervention?

I haven't read that. If there is more to his words if you could point me there I appreciate it.

At this point I don't know who's support I would have for conducting an intervention. My kids don't seem to be negatively impacted by her drinking in "their" eyes. (I don't like the message it sends to them). I suspect they'll be upset and surprised if I tell them we need an intervention.

Her sister continues to live her IB lifestyle with her alcoholic husband. Her father drank everyday and her mother sort of enabled it. The only family on my side that I would asked to support me would be my sister and H but my Sis is going through Chemo for the next 5 months so I wouldn't want to ask her. I have friends that would support me but they wouldn't be able to influence her. Her friends are friends she drinks with.

We live hours away from any family.

She just now stated if I insist she will quit drinking for a couple of months but not until after the Holidays.

Despite my desire to have an MB marriage I really don't have one. She isn't truly on board and dismisses a lot of the principles (UA, IB).

In Letter no.2, which I linked above:

"Sometimes those who love and care for someone addicted to alcohol get together to encourage him or her to admit themselves to treatment. It's called an intervention. Your wife's alcoholic behavior is described to her by each person in the group who has witnessed it, and a treatment program that you have already investigated is ready to admit her immediately.

Your local chapter of Alcoholics Anonymous can help you learn what it is and organize one for you. If your wife has a mother and three siblings who are alcoholic, at least one of them may have already been exposed to an intervention, and may be willing to help you with it.

The down-side of an intervention can be resentment. Alcoholics often feel that the very ones who have cared for them the most are ganging up on them. They often agree to go to treatment, not because they think they need it, but because of the threats made by their friends. When the treatment has ended, they no longer feel that they can trust their friends.

In your case, you may be able to encourage your wife to enter treatment without making any threats. And during treatment you may be able to prove to her that you care about her as much as ever. If it's done right, when treatment is over, she will have a better relationship with those who joined the intervention than she had with them before it happened.

Since your wife became addicted to alcohol, it has become her lover, and you will not be able to compete with it. Her need for alcohol will override all of her other interests, including you and your children. When you suggested to her that she slow down on her drinking, she became angry with you, because she needs it so badly.

She does not want to believe that her drinking is a problem, and short of an intervention, you may not be able to convince her. Your efforts will only make her angry, and she may try to find someone else who will support her dependency. An intervention has proven to be one of the best and most effective ways of delivering help, and it may be your only reasonable option."

Have you ever written to Dr Harley about this specific thing? Remember, he used to run a chain of addiction clinics.

I haven't written to him yet. I will do so here shortly.

Sorry I'm at work and didn't click into the links you provided above. I will find some time to read through everything in those links tonight.

Here is something that I am struggling with.

I thought it was clear to me; follow MB and the POJA. If either of us doing something that bothers the other bring it out in the open to help resolve it. I have told her my thoughts. I think she has more than a drinking problem, that she is addicted. She communicates she doesn't think so merely just a drinking problem so I avoid the argument or pressing her on it. Instead I've spent my time making the point that her use of alcohol is a problem for me and thus it's a problem for the marriage. I've encouraged her to stop drinking.

I'm no expert on alcoholism. I'm only stating what I feel in my gut regarding her use of booze. Therefore I tiptoe around the addiction issue. I don't know if I have enough to prove to anyone that she has more than a drinking problem. That it's possible she's careless, at times, with her drinking but could, in fact, live without it. I simply am unsure. So any talk of an intervention causes me pause.

I don't know that there is any difference between "a drinking problem" and alcoholism. She can't and won't stop. She doesn't have to be drinking herself into the gutter each night for her to be an alcoholic.

She read something that said there is a difference. She showed me the articles. Said she wanted the opportunity to prove it to herself that that's all it is. Not that a drinking problem is any small thing mind you.

Her finding that only reaffirms her belief she isn't an alcoholic.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Who cares what you or she calls it. It must end, regardless. If she won't end it herself, then she needs an intervention. Tiptoeing around the issue is not helping her or your marriage. Arguing over whether she has a drinking problem or is an alcoholic is simply conflict avoidance.

I don't Understand why you allow yourself to get roped into these lunatic discussions about definitions. What difference does it make? It is cute and winsome to split hairs but at the end of the day it is [censored]. The bottom line is it is ruining your marriage do that is all the reason she needs to quit.

If she won't quit, that is proof positive she is addicted. You have a tendency to have the same problems for years on end. In fact we have already addressed this very ploy with you years ago. AND HERE WE ARE AGAIN.

Then she should have no issue quitting, should she? It should be no more troublesome than giving up Cheerios.

Yes, you have Mel. I won't apologize, of course. That would be lame. I appreciate your being candid with me. It's a huge help.

Here is the latest I've stated to her. I'm waiting to see what she says.


Mel I suspect your advice to me hasn't changed. If she won't quit drinking then I should separate.

I hear you. I also know I'm chicken-sh** and would rather I fight with her to get her to change. I don't want to have to defend myself against all the enablers in her family that will ask me what's so bad that I needed to separate.

I've contemplated reaching out to her sister for support. She doesn't drink yet lives with her alcoholic H who continues to drink. If I do that she will, of course, immediately tell my W that we talked. I wish I had a guarantee she'd support me. I don't know if she become friend or foe in my attempts to intervene on my W's drinking habits.

Which leads me back to thinking I'd simply just have to separate. When to call it quits when you're a capitulator and procrastinator?

You just asked her to not MB you. This is the opposite of purposefully stopping love busters because they bother the other person.

This ended with your threat of independent behavior.

Why are you sabotaging her offer to stop drinking?

If she wants to resume in the future, you can again request not. In the meantime you can plan A so she has something to lose if she does.

Threatening to separate is a huge lovebuster. It destabilizes the other person tremendously and disincents them to care about the marriage.

It is much better to simply separate if the drinking resumes.

This is way too many people running your marriage based on your hypothetical speculations.

Mr. Alias, you gave me some really good advice when I was going through my difficult times. It seems like you (like me and everyone else) often can't see as clearly into our own situation as we can into others'.

You would do better to focus on your problem (requesting your wife to agree to stop drinking because it's a lovebuster) and not care what the crowds say. They aren't married to your wife, you are.

If your wife, during her voluntary time of not drinking, resumes because she is too addicted not to, then deal with that. For now, take her offer as a start and give her the opportunity to show you she is not addicted.


Edited to add: Supposing she is successful, there will be a time in the future that she wants to discuss resuming. You can continue to request not if at that time it is still a lovebuster. Here again, if she disregards you and displays an addiction then you have choices to make at that time. Expressing a threat to separate shouldn't be one of them.

Have you read the Q&A columns that I linked yet?

Have you written to Dr Harley yet?

Your wife is an alcoholic.

She fits this definition by Dr Harley:

"Some people wonder if they are really alcoholics. They may not go to bars, and they may not even get drunk very often. What is an alcoholic? My definition of an alcoholic is someone who cannot follow the Policy of Joint Agreement because of their craving for alcohol. If your drinking in any form bothers your spouse, and you cannot or will not give it up for his or her sake, I consider you an alcoholic because alcohol is more important to you than the feelings of your spouse."

What to do with an alcoholic spouse: Letter no.1

Per Dr. Harley: "Some people wonder if they are really alcoholics. They may not go to bars, and they may not even get drunk very often. What is an alcoholic? My definition of an alcoholic is someone who cannot follow the Policy of Joint Agreement because of their craving for alcohol. If your drinking in any form bothers your spouse, and you cannot or will not give it up for his or her sake, I consider you an alcoholic because alcohol is more important to you than the feelings of your spouse."

She just agreed to give it up for several months. This is different from her prior agreement to only cut it back (which still ended up with lovebusting situations).

I think Dr. Harley would advise you to support her in her decision to give it up, Plan A her in the meanwhile and prepare for separation (without threatening her about it) in the event she reverts back to drinking in disregard to your feelings.

When you hear back from him, let us know what he says.

I don't know that this fixes the problem Sunny. She already put stipulations on it. Please not until after the Holidays. I believe she may have the fortitude to not drink for a couple months (she didn't say a few) where she will then simply resume drinking. If she makes it through that she'll state that that proves her point that she's not an alcoholic.

I agree it probably would have been best to just separate instead of letting her know that's my plan. Doesn't mean I can't still separate if she doesn't stop.

I brought back out our discussion (her plan) we had early this year. In her plan she said if she struggled to follow the plan she'd seek help. I'm holding her to her promise.

SC I haven't written to Dr Harley but I intend to as soon as I have some spare time. I've slated some time tomorrow to do that.

If waiting until after the holidays doesn't work with you, then continue to POJA based on what bothers or hurts you.

Did she state that she was done POJA'ing the issue and that you could take a hike? "please not until after the holidays" sounds like she's still engaging.

You can respond that it hurts you too much now, and that waiting until after the holidays will be too painful.

Based on your recounting of the conversations, you haven't pursued the negotiation to the end, where she chooses the alcohol over you. You fear she will based on her past behaviors, but she hasn't done so yet.

All of those behaviors were prior to your raising the bar to no more alcohol at all. The bar of cutting back on the alcohol was not high enough since her version of "cutting back" is still LBing you.