I have been married for nearly 20 years and I am just about ready to end things.

Here's the history as short as I can make it... kinda tough to do with such a long period of time.

We are nearly polar opposites. He is shy, very quiet, content with staying home all the time. I am outgoing,

opinionated, and very social. We have 3 kids. Oldest has moved out, next one is getting close to graduating HS,

youngest is 13.

This is not my first time on Marriage Builders I started researching here in 2005 to prevent myself from having

an affair. I was feeling very let down by and not attracted to my husband. He had been feeding a porn addiction for a long time and he was unemployed at that time... for the first time anyway.

I knew about the porn, and for a while, I even participated with him. It got to the point where I felt I wasn't enough and that hurt. I explained this and asked him to stop. He couldn't, so he started hiding things from me. I don't remember the amount of lies or the number of times that something showed up in his internet history or one of our kids accidentally found something on his phone or our computer. The good news is - at least as far as I know - he seems to have conquered this problem.

As for his unemployment... it happened four times total. Two of the times were legitimate layoffs, no fault on his part. Once was due to his excessive absences. And the last time it happened - he just abandoned the job. I stuck with him as I should. For better or for worse, right? We had to use the unemployment checks to make ends meet - so it was very necessary that he follow all rules to keep those checks coming. He knew this but he hated filling out paperwork. At first, I helped sometimes, but encouraged him to do it on his own. He was probably depressed, but for whatever reason, he did not do what he needed to do. Finally, I got tired of being scared to death that we would not have the money to pay our bills - so I took it all over. I applied to 2 jobs per week for him. This was probably the beginning of some emasculation for him. I do have to own some of that. I should have insisted that he take care of business.

In 2005, I told him that I was depressed and not attracted to him and crushing on someone at work. I asked him to fill out the EN questionnaire to help save our marriage. He refused. So, I just let him know what my most important EN's were and did my best to meet his nearly insatiable need for sexual affection. I admit to falling short. After I gave birth to one child - my libido dropped. After the second - it was nearly non-existent. So we go from 5-6 times a week to 3-4, etc. Add that to my feeling let down and not attracted to him and you get... what? An affair? No - or at least not that I know of other than the porn... I did the research and I knew that I
needed to try to meet his needs. So for the last 11 years, I continued to have sex with him even when I had no desire. It may not seem like much to some people - but aside from illness and the healing time after having the babies - we had sex at least two or three times a week. Actually, more than that until the last 5 years or so. But even now - it is still once or twice a week. His libido is finally slowing due to age / loss of hormones. I thought it would feel like a relief. It doesn't. It feels like a sentence to life without parole.

The only thing that is still good between us when everything else is rotten is sex. Even when I am not in the mood... I usually wind up in the mood after we get started and he is very considerate of making sure that I am satisfied. So if that winds up being gone or slows way down... even though I will not miss it... there is a part of me that realizes what it means. It means we truly are going to be just roommates who maybe have sex sometimes.

I tried to meet his needs. Every week, year after year, I tried. He tried to meet mine... for a week or two after I would get upset and let him know what I needed... then it would be back to the same old thing.

- He doesn't want to go anywhere - but he gets jealous when I do.
- He wants to sit around all the time. He wants me home but ignores me to watch tv, play games, etc.
- He doesn't want to help handle the bills (I've tried to involve him in this, multiple times) - but he still wants to question how I spend the money.
- Most days - the only type of affection I can get is sexual in nature. Being groped is not romantic.
- It is tough to want to meet his sexual needs or even kiss him when he hardly ever brushes his teeth.
- He rarely asks how I am or how my day was unless prompted in some way. Sometimes even after I ask HIM - he still doesn't care enough to ask me.
- Anytime we ask for something (me or the kids) - it feels like he sees it as a burden. Help fix the car, take out the trash, talk to your WIFE. All too much for him.

He can't or won't meet my most important EN's on a regular basis - affection (non-sexual), conversation, and openness and honesty. Years of that, combined with porn bust / lie ## ?? led to my one-sided EA in 2009. I told hubby what was going on, again - it was all my fault - and as he put it... if I ran off with the guy, he 'knew where he'd be getting the child support from'. Wow. I was being open with him to try to work on our marriage - I even suggested that I quit my job to get away from OM - husband's concern was money. It made me wonder why I was fighting so hard against having a PA. I nearly did it. Eventually, I purposefully sent a message to OM that I
knew was over the top. If OM had responded differently - this post might not even be here - but he ran. Good. I asked hubby to go to counseling with me. He came with me to one session. Then the counselor asked too many questions I guess and he couldn't hang. He advised me that this was MY problem and I could keep going but he would not go back.

After years of depression and self esteem issues - I finally made a decision to work on myself. I worked out, I lost weight, I finished my bachelor's degree... I grew as a person. I feel that he remained stagnant. This was around the time of the last unemployment / job abandonment. I let him know - again - that I felt my needs were not being met and asked him to go to counseling. Finally, he agreed! We went. The lady was very old-fashioned, neither of us cared for her much, but something that stuck was that we needed to start dating again. We did. He surprised me - I surprised him. The love bank started to refill. There would still be multiple withdrawals over the next couple of years - but on the marriage-coaster 'ups', we would make deposits and get back to good most of
the time.

Then - even though I felt that I was still meeting his needs as much as I could - it seemed he grew complacent after one big surprise date. I started gaining weight again and feeling down. I needed something different. I am a social butterfly but I was feeling locked in a prison. I decided to do something that I love. Sing. I joined a band. Of course - this involved less time at home. Practice at least 2x per week and we usually had 2 gigs per month. I started getting happier. I felt satisfied with life in general. So I felt more satisfied with him. I thought things were going great.

Things weren't great for him. My new happiness was not working for him. He missed me. He even told me so -once- in that 6 month period. Turns out that the last half of that 6 month period was spent having his own one-sided EA with his highschool sweetheart. She shut him down. So then he contacted the girl he dated right before he started dating me. I found this all out by accident. Confronted him. He lied to my face, multiple times. I sent a message to both girls on FB, advised them that I knew about the messaging and pics being sent and asked them to stop all contact so that we could work on repairing our marriage. (No clue if any sexting happened or if it was all 'innocent' as they claimed - because he deleted everything.) I left him for several days. The conditions for my return were counseling (round 3!), no more lies, no contact with either of his exes. He agreed. We did counseling. I was so angry. He had been giving his exes what I needed... what I had been begging for, for YEARS. His time and conversation. I reviewed the phone records and put the numbers in a pie chart. One month - out of 1105 texts... ex GF # 1 got 909 messages. Me? I got 196. I showed the counselor. We showed hubby during a session. I asked him how he would feel if I had performed 909 sexual favors for my exes while only giving him 196. He gave the most sincere apology after that session. I thought that he finally understood what I needed.

Nope. Marriage-coaster still going. He tried again for a couple of weeks to give me more conversation. Then that
pretty much stopped - again. And I think that he is incapable of non-sexual affection. I am no longer in the band - that actually ended just before I found out about his exes. I feel scared to be myself. I am depressed again. We have nothing in common that isn't about house, kids, bills. We had a great New Year's Eve. But that one night is the only time in the last year that I can honestly say I was truly happy with him and having fun with him. I expressed my feelings earlier this week after a rough night - said that I needed a good cry (I was feeling hurt by his lack of compassion when I was sick that day and the fact that he'd rather fall asleep in the living room than in our room just because of the movie I was watching... ummmm - why does it matter what I was watching if
you are going to sleep anyway??) - he scoffed at me. He actually snorted.

So - call it the straw that broke the camel's back. Call it whatever you want. I can't even express how I feel now??!? It is mocked. Dismissed. I can't take any more. For me - the romantic love love bank is empty.

I do not claim perfection. I am flirty (though there is a line that I no longer cross... if I wouldn't say it or do it in front of hubby - then I don't say/do it at all). I am grumpy in the mornings. I yell more often than I should. I don't clean like I should. As already admitted, I have a low libido. I procrastinate. I can be very verbally vicious. (Alliteration intended.) I like to be right.

However, I don't have a problem admitting when I am wrong. If I see, or if someone points out an issue - I try to work on it. I tried an herbal remedy for the libido issue. I have been the only one to try to educate myself on things we can do to add spark. Aside from a few surprise dates, I am the one who arranges all date nights.

He is not all bad all the time. He's a great lover. He loves his kids. He cooks dinner much of the time. He takes care of mowing and other general house maintenance. He does try with me - he just forgets maybe? I mean - why should he worry about me leaving him right? I have allowed this behavior to continue for 20 years.

My current thought is to 'Plan A' for a month. I have printed the EN questionnaire again. I filled it out for
myself and I will give him one again. I will bust my butt to meet his needs. If he refuses to try this or fails to meet my needs on a consistent basis during that month - I move to Plan B. I do not need him financially - so starting plan b won't be much of an issue.

So... on that note... I realize that this is pretty much only one side you get to see/read...

But please reality check me. Am I crazy? A control freak? Do I expect too much? Have I stayed too long?

(Signature is my old one from 2005... no clue what it looks like and no time to update right now.)

I don't have time to read such an overly long post, but my suggestion would be to try Marriage Builders. Read His Needs, Her Needs and try to sell your husband on the program. If he won't engage, then you should plan a separation. When to Call it Quits I would educate yourself on the Marriage Builders program FIRST.

A couple of red flags I want to address:

1. you had an affair because you have poor boundaries around men. Your H could have met your needs 100% and you would have still had an affair if you allowed other men to meet your needs. If you don't understand that, then you will have more affairs. Your affair is 100% your own fault.

2. having reluctant sex with your spouse is how aversions are created - it ruins marriages. Its not a good idea to have sex unless you enjoy it.

3. No, that is not what " for better or worse means." It isn't meant to apply to a spouses marriage wrecking choices but events that are out of their control.



Is he still unemployed? That typically leads to serious depression in men so that would explain why he is checked out. My suggestion would be to follow the instructions in When to Call it Quits and write him a letter asking him to get a job and engage in the MB program. Give him about 3 weeks to get on board. If he won't do that, then you should separate. I would also absolutely insist he stop all porn use if he hasn't already. And of course, neither of you should have opposite sex friendships. That is how affairs start.

In short, if you use the program it works. But you have use it.

Thank you MelodyLane. Sorry - it definitely is a 'book' post.

I have read His Needs, Her Needs and the When To Call It Quits articles. I should probably read the book again - out loud - with him.

Agreed on my poor boundaries and I definitely made a choice to have an EA when I should not have done so. I respectfully disagree about the needs though. Had H been meeting mine, I would not need to even try have those needs met elsewhere. If I failed most of the time to meet his need for sexual affection, would he not seek to have that meed met somewhere else? I think that's the basic idea in one (or all) of the articles about how affairs start. Unmet needs.

Agreed on reluctant sex - but how to meet that need for him if he can't or won't meet mine and help us both refill the love bank?

Understood about the 'for better or for worse'.

He is currently employed and as far as I know the porn has stopped.

My love bank is empty. I'd say it is in the negative right now. I'm no longer sure I want the marriage to work. Multiple times tried, multiple times let down. I cannot fix it on my own and he won't read any of this or engage for long enough to put more than a few love units at a time in before a love buster creeps up and withdraws.

Well, educating your spouse is a lovebuster so I would not read it with him unless he agrees to engage in the program. I would also add that you should listen ot the radio show every day so you can grasp the program. There is an app you can download on your phone. It will help you immensely.

Listening to the radio show every day is what really helped me understand the program.,


You should not be trying and that is my point. Your lovebank should be closed to others. Obviously, allowing another man to meet your needs does not help your marriage and I don't think you understand that the ENTIRE POINT of meeting needs is to create love in your marriage. How does allowing some creep to meet your needs create romance in your marriage? It does not. I think you can agree that having an affair did absolutely nothing to enhance your marriage.

So that tells me you don't understand the whole point of emotional needs. They are not 'needs" like water or air, they are necessary to create romance in your marriage.


Once again, you don't understand the concept of emotional needs. Meeting his need for sex out of duress makes you LESS likely to ever meet that need because doing so creates an aversion. Yes, you want to meet each others needs in marriage, but you can't do it in a sacrificial way or you will greatly damage your marriage.


You don't meet that need unless it is done in a way that makes you happy. You would have desire for him if you were in love with him. If he won't meet your needs, you should separate frm him.


Are you certain the porn has stopped? It is devastating to marriages so you need to be sure.


I agree you can't fix it on your own, but you have not been following the program in any way, shape or form so I don't know how you would expect him to. In order to persuade him to follow the progrma, you need to a) understand it and b) follow it yourself.

I would carefully read the article When to Call it Quits and let us help you formulate a "Plan A" letter to him outlining what you need to be in love with him.

I spent many years in my marriage not having my needs met. I never tried to get them met elsewhere. An affair is the worst possible response to that problem. It's worse than divorce. It would be better to just see a divorce lawyer, get a quick divorce, go build a better life for yourself, and then get your needs met elsewhere, because then you would be free to seek another relationship.

No. He might simply cry himself to sleep every night.

No; Dr. Harley says that is a common misconception that people can get when they read his book His Needs Her Needs but don't read his book Surviving an Affair.

That's up to you. Nobody says you have to make it work. I would suggest following Dr. Harley's plan to give it one last chance, including the part of his plan where eventually you separate if your husband won't help you achieve a happy marriage.

Just looked the app up earlier today!! I thought there had to be something by now and was very glad to find it. Will download once I am home.

Had no idea or recollection that educating H was a lovebuster. It definitely sounds like I have more research to do.


Agreed.


Will do. Thanks very much.

Thanks markos.

Bad choice of words on my part. I was not purposefully trying to have those needs met elsewhere. My EA was more than 5 years ago. I agree it was the worst response. I reacted immaturely to not having my needs met and to his lack of concern for anything but 'child support money' at the time, but I still should not have done that. I messed up. He forgave me. We moved on. He later had his own EA. I forgave him and thought we had moved on, but maybe I haven't truly forgiven him.

The issue now is that I am not in love with him. I need to re-educate myself on the program, determine if I really do want the marriage, and try to get him on board if I do. I could definitely use help with that Plan A letter.

I would strongly encourage you to read what Dr. Harley says about forgiveness for an affair. You might want to get his book Surviving an Affair, as well. It does contain the whole Marriage Builders plan of recovery and plan for a good marriage in it.

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget? part 1
Can't We Just Forgive and Forget? part 2
Can't We Just Forgive and Forget? part 3

After reading the When To Call It Quits article again, Dr. Harley's advice does not indicate an actual letter for Plan A - just a discussion - and then if H refuses to participate in MB, meet his needs for a month without expecting mine to be met right away.


So... my plan now is to take the EN and LB questionnaires home. I will follow the suggestions in the 'When should you tell your spouse "We have a problem" ' article.


I will include the questionnaires as part of our brainstorming. If he does not agree to try - I will Plan A for a month - although part of me feels that I have been doing this type of Plan A in many ways for the last 10 years. However - mixed in were plenty of LBs on my part as well so I will have to avoid those.

If he still doesn't get it or appear to care - I will move to Plan B.

Thoughts?

He typically gives this advice on the radio show. It is a good idea to give your spouse a letter.


Sounds good!

So - before I could complete a Plan A letter - we wound up having a discussion over the weekend.

I told him that I am not in love with him and that there are things I need to fall back in love with him. One of those things was that we need to both do Marriage Builders. At first he sounded defeated already. He asked if we should even try. (Ouch?! No - not really. It bugged me - but probably not as much as it should.) We had more discussion - I asked him a couple of times if he would be willing to try MB (it was a long discussion) - but then he fell asleep without answering my question.

I was thinking that meant he gave up. But then Sunday morning - he held me and told me he didn't want to lose me. I asked if that means he is willing to do MB. He said yes. He says he will read HN,HN (he HATES reading) and if he has questions about anything he will ask me or search internet. I am trying to be hopeful, but we've been here before, so I guess I feel defeated already as well. In fact, part of our discussion was about how things normally go ok for a couple of weeks and then we both get complacent or he gets complacent and I get resentful. He says he understands this has to be more than just a temporary thing. Basically he said all the right things and I felt good about things and wanted SA. Still - in the back of my mind I wondered if he only agreed to this for SA.

I told him this morning that it would be very disappointing to get to the end of this week and not have any questions from him or discussions about the materials. That probably came off as a disrespectful judgement. I don't mean for it to be that - I just wanted to make sure he knows this is important.

I feel that I should still write the Plan A letter and bring it home to him with the EN and LB questionnaires.

Something that I haven't seen in the very few Plan A examples... do I give the time line info? Or do I just meet his needs for a month and not say a word (unless he asks for help with a definition or something) about how he is doing with the reading, etc.? Then get a Plan B letter ready in the event that he decides our marriage is not important enough to him to learn and go through all this?

HNHN is available as an audiobook. Get it from the MB bookshop or from Amazon.

Get his agreement to sign up for the online coaching course. Don't force him into it, but persuade him that you need to be on the course where you get weekly coaching sessions supervised by Dr Harley. Act now on this.

A lot of the material on the online course comes in the form of CDs, so he will not find it had to cope with. What he needs is commitment, even if he does not have enthusiasm at the moment. If he understands that you are unhappy, and if he cares about that, he will see the need to do this.

Don't tell him that you are doing a Plan A and you shouldn't tell him the timeframe. That would be more like a threat.

Writing a letter expressing your concerns and wishes is important because it will communicate the message clearly, and he can refer to it in the future. Don't assume that he will process and remember your words the way you would. This is critical.

And yes, also do what Sugarcane says.

Audio HNHN ordered as well as the 5 Steps to Romantic Love wkbk.

The on line course... is that the telephone session for 45-50 minutes?

No, it's a weekly home study course. You complete lessons from workbooks, but you have a coach to whip you into compliance. Dr Harley will identify where you need to begin, and he monitors your progress. You can write to him on the private forum here if you have a specific problem. The course takes about a year to complete, and it works on every area of your marriage.

Online accountability course

Don't order any more workbooks, or printed books, if you get your H's agreement to do the online course. You get two copies of all the necessary books and workbooks when you sign up. A box the size of a small horse will arrive on your doorstep.