Hi,

I've been following the forums for the past few months, reading the books, and listening to the radio show. I was hoping someone could help or offer advice regarding my situation.

My husband and I (together for decades, daughter in grade school) have had problems resolving conflicts for a long time. What keeps happening is that he'll get to the verge of losing his temper and say that he's not discussing the issue anymore, I'll get upset and ask him why we can't resolve the problem, and then he will lose his temper and the issue will become me "not letting" him withdraw from a conversation. He gets really mad about this, yells, calls names, etc., and says that I'm violating his basic right to have autonomy and withdraw, and that I'm in the wrong and he's leaving the marriage if I won't stop "not letting" him withdraw.

Here's how it went earlier today. He had an appointment this weekend. The person he had the appointment with emailed him to ask if they could reschedule it. I told him that it was important to me for us to be together as a family during the proposed time. He said that he had scheduled appointments at this time in the past (though not for the past several weeks), so I shouldn't have expected to have that time together. I again said that it was important to me for us to be together, and he said it seemed like I'd be unhappy if he scheduled the appointment at that time. He asked if that was correct and I affirmed that it was. Then he said he was about to lose his temper and was therefore going to stop talking about it for the time being. I responded with the question "why?" Meaning: why are you losing your temper? Why would you be losing your temper over this situation? He said that it wasn't the time to talk about it and that he would be really upset if I denied his right to withdraw from a conversation yet again. I asked if I could just say one more thing. He said again that he didn't want to talk about it, and then went back to his computer to reply to the email.

I kept trying to tell him that he didn't need to lose his temper and that we should be able to talk about how each of us felt about the appointment and negotiate a solution. He got more and more worked up as this was happening, told me that I was being domineering, etc. I left the room and went to take a shower.

After the shower, he came in and told me that "it was never going to work" if I wouldn't "let him" withdraw when he was losing his temper, and he was "just telling it how it is." I tried to respond, but it became clear that he still wasn't really calm enough to talk when he started yelling, calling me names, getting in my face, etc. He left the apartment then.

Then we had a long series of emails and texts where he told me that "this was not going to work" if he can't withdraw from a conversation when he feels he has to, and he would end the current conversation if I attempted to evade or mitigate what I did. I told him that sounded like a selfish demand (he's spent some time on the website too, and read parts of the books), and asked if I could rephrase it to "it bothers me to the point of feeling unbearable when I say that you want to stop talking and you keep talking to me". He said it was more than that: it's a chronic problem and unacceptable by anyone's standards including Dr. Harley's. I asked what anyone else's standards had to do with it, since the real issue was that it bothers *him*. He replied that we can't continue until I admitted that I was in the wrong and had broken a basic rule of civil behavior. I told him it seemed like he was trying to justify his angry outburst, and blaming me for it. Oh- throughout this whole conversation, I kept reiterating that it was probably dumb of me to keep trying to talk to him when he was losing his temper, and maybe disrespectful of his feelings, and I could work on not doing that for those reasons (and because he found it unbearable). But he kept insisting that I needed to admit that my behavior was extremely toxic, that it was directly contrary to what Dr Harley advises and makes his advice impossible to follow, and that I was in the wrong.

We've had similar arguments several times over the past few years. In the past, I've told him that I'd work on "letting him" withdraw from conversations, but that it would really help if he would ask me more nicely (like say, "I'm sorry, I just can't handle my temper, could we talk about this in an hour?"). He said he would try to do this, but has never done it. I tried to explain that I'm never expecting him to suddenly lose his temper (I don't know why I still don't expect that...), and that it's hard for me to not try to reason with him if I feel like I haven't done anything that should make him mad.

He has acknowledged that he needs to work on controlling his temper and eliminating love busters, but says that I'm actively preventing him from regulating his emotions by continuing to talk to him when he wants to withdraw from a conversation. I told him that I wanted to help him and would try not to keep talking when he didn't want to. But he doesn't seem to accept that and keeps insisting that my behavior is outrageous and unacceptable and I need to admit this before we can talk about anything else (including his behavior).

Thanks in advance for any feedback and/or advice.

Welcome to MB.

Have you and your H listened to the clips in here?
Anger Management 101

Do you have the book Love Busters?

Thanks. Yes and yes. He's reading it now.

Dr. Harley says anger must be eliminated before anything else can be worked on.

Have you read this?
What to do with an Angry Husband

Yes. He's working on his anger, but says I make it impossible for him by "not letting" him withdraw when he feels like he's about to lose his temper, and he says I'm wrong to do this and wants me to agree.

Forcing him to talk against his will when he has told you he doesn't want to talk is controlling and would qualify as a selfish demand. The correct thing for him to do when/if he feels himself getting angry is to leave the conversation entirely.


It doesn't matter why and you should not badger him to answer this when he has told you he doesn't want to discuss it anymore.


REad this: "When requests don't get you what you want, and demands don't work either, our instincts and habits often provide us with another controlling and abusive strategy -- disrespectful judgments. Without a doubt, demands are abusive, but disrespectful judgments often make demands seem merciful in comparison.

In the final analysis, disrespectful judgments represent an effort to force our spouses to give us what we want in marriage, but it's often cleverly disguised. Instead of making an outright demand, we present our problem as if it were really our spouse's personal shortcoming. We try to "straighten out" our spouse in an effort to get our way.

At the time we rationalize our disrespect by convincing ourselves that we're doing our spouses a big favor, to lift them from the darkness of their confusion into the light of our superior perspective. If they would only follow our advice, we tell ourselves, they could avoid many of life's pitfalls-and we would also get what we want.

A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one spouse tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other. When a husband tries to force his point of view on his wife, he's just asking for trouble. When a wife assumes that her own views are right and her husband is woefully misguided -- and tells him so -- she enters a minefield." here

My suggestion would be to get the book Lovebusters and study it carefully. You won't be able to EVER resolve your marriage problems until you eliminate lovebusters.

And yes, he needs to eliminate angry outbursts. But you also need to stop being controlling and stop using disrespectful judgements against him. When a person feels anger coming on, the immediate solution is to end the conversation. You need to stop trying to prevent this. After all, once someone gets angry they have lost all ability to negotiate solutions anyway.

If either person needs a break because the conversation has become unpleasant, he or she should walk away. Why do you think it is okay for you to walk out on unpleasant conversation, but he should not?

Thanks. I realize that saying he had no reason to lose his temper is a disrespectful judgement. I don't think I was forcing him to talk against his will, though. He did not get up and leave the room. What's the best way to handle it when I inadvertently express something that he reacts to by losing his temper? It always comes as a shock and is very upsetting to me, so I have a hard time not trying to reason with him even though I know it's probably a mistake. Should I just say nothing and leave the room myself, and then try to deal with feeling hurt myself?

The other issue right now is that he really wants me to say it's wrong to talk to someone who wants to withdraw, but he won't apologize or take responsibility for his own behavior. I really don't feel like I did anything wrong other than the disrespectful judgement, and I feel like he's kind of bullying me into taking the blame.

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A selfish demand is demanding that you DO something. Asking you to leave him alone is not demanding you DO something, it is asking you to STOP doing something that bothers him. The selfish demand in this scenario was committed by you when you demanded he continue to communicate with you.

Let me give you analogy. If a husband is beating his wife and she asks him to stop is she committing a selfish demand?

I don't think he should not. He didn't walk out.

You should just promise to never do it again. If he needs to stop the converstaion, you should respect that. And you are not in a position to force him to apologize or "take responsibility." That is a lovebuster.


Agree to stop it when he asks you to stop.

In the meantime, I would STOP having any serious discussions until you both learn how to eliminate lovebusters. Do you have the book?

Are you married? If so, How long? Did you live together before marriage?

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He is right, you were making a selfish demand. Unfortunately, he has followed it with a selfish demand of his own.

Btw "inadvertently" = the devil made me do it, which does NOT fly around here. You told him how to feel and demanded he continue a conversation when he did not want to. This is disrespectful. Don't make excuses.

I didn't demand that he continue to communicate with me. And the thing he said that I thought was a selfish demand was that it was never going to work if I wouldn't "let" him withdraw. The implication being that there would be consequences such as him getting a divorce. Isn't a selfish demand asking for something that benefits the asker but harms the other person? And is not stopping talking really on the same level as not stopping hitting someone?

Continuing to argue when he has told you he doesn't want to discuss anymore is a selfish demand. IT makes no sense to continue at that point because you can't negotiate with a person who is angry.

RESPECT with no lovebusters is the only way to negotiate successful outcomes.

But you persisted in arguing with him when he told you he wanted to withdraw. Again, a selfish DEMAND is demanding that someone DO something. He asked you to stop, he was not demanding that you DO something. You were being controlling and bullying when you wouldn't stop.

Do you believe that asking someone to stop beating them is a "selfish demand?" While there is a difference between beating and bullying someone, the principle is the same.

I can try to never do it again, but I don't think promising is realistic. I do it when I'm upset. I'm not trying to force him to apologize. He's demanding an apology from me, and blaming me for him losing his temper. I never even mentioned an apology to him, it's just that I think he *should* apologize for yelling and calling me names.

I agree that we should stop having serious discussions until we read the books. We have them- I've read them and he's in the process of reading them. I didn't know this was a serious discussion at first, though.

Are you married?

When I said "inadvertently", I was referring to him losing originally losing his temper because I said it would bother me if he rescheduled the appointment.

I didn't tell him how to feel, or demand that he continue the conversation.