You know what? I've been thinking about this. If a person in a position authority has an affair with a person who directly reports to him, that is sexual harassment whether the relationship is consensual or not. There are just too many what-ifs. What if the subordinate didn't feel like she could reject his advances without suffering work related consequences. What if the subordinate entered willingly into the relationship, but then was afraid to break it off for fear of being given the crappy assignments.

If a person in a position of authority doesn't recognize that, they don't need to be in authority.

How could I live with myself if I never said anything? This person may not have had these fears or concerns, but what about the next one? Sure, he'll say there would never be a next one, but he stood up in front of God and his mama and signed paperwork for the government and took an oath that it wouldn't happen this time, yet here we are.

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

Your lawyer should have no problem demolishing your H's argument. How ridiculous. And even if he was demoted to third shift, your H can produce the actual demotion which should show the reason. I have no doubt it says something about unprofessional workplace behavior. *HIS* behavior!

No court date set. My lawyer and I are going to send a full proposal next week. Seeing how whiny he is being, I have a feeling he won't be agreeing to anything I propose.

This morning my IM sent me a message that he wants the school break schedule because he would like to take the older kids to visit his family either the week of Thanksgiving or in early January because he knows eldset kiddo has scout camp the week between Christmas and new year's.
So, both if those breaks are only 5 days long. If you'll remember, last December he threw a fit when I offered a 5 day trip because it was too short to be worth the drive. Too quick of a turnaround time, and he just did what he wanted. So this should be interesting. Kiddo is loving high school, and didn't even want to leave early to see the orthodontist. I had to schedule the appointments for after school and fall break. So I know he won't be talked into just not coming back to school on time. WH doesn't give a hoot about what hurts me, but I don't think he'll chance making another kid quit talking to him.

Since I don't care which should I just let him pick? And I guess I'll offer a week during the summer when I do the settlement proposal.

Update: we went through mediation. (My state requires this before you can go to court.) Separate rooms, I never had to see him. The parenting plan is worked out, and the child support. When we got to spousal support we hit problems. He basically low-balled me. My lawyer laughed and told the mediator to tell them to try again. We had been there a very long time by this point, but since we were getting things worked out we were going to stay and keep at it. But we are now probably going to have to go to court.

I decided not to keep the house. I thought about the work it still needs, and spoke to a realtor about its market value, and realized that in the long term it will only hurt me financially.

I am now at a point where I just want this to be over. When I found out that he has stashed over $3000 in his retirement account in the past six months, while I was using food stamps to feed the kids, and then he offered a ridiculously small amount of money to live on for rehabilitative alimony, I've lost any small amount of good feeling I had left for him. It's one thing to leave me, another entirely to purposefully leave me destitute (or try to). Thank goodness I have a good lawyer.

Sorry he isn't doing the right thing for his family.

How are you doing? How are your kids doing?

It's been a while since I updated. We still don't have a court date set, but now all involved know that there will be one. And WH is so mad about everything. He has lost his apartment, I didn't just sign on the dotted line for him, my attorney sent him discovery/interrogatories, and he is showing how mad he is. He manipulated my IM - he chose words carefully and ended up with me thinking we were switching to a new visitation time, but picked up at the old, earlier time then when I sent word through her that I was confused (and had a dentist appointment during the old drop off time) he told her that we don't have anything signed and he was keeping the kids until the new, later time. (It was 9:30-2 and was supposed to change to 12 - 6:30. He took them 9:30 - 6:30.) When my IM told him the next week that she needed to know exactly what the drop off and pick up times would be and she didn't appreciate the manipulation and time wasting, he threw a fit and is now refusing to talk through her. So this past week, rather than tell me when he would pick up the baby, he just didn't pick her up. I went at my mom's so I wouldn't have to deal with him if he showed up at my house. I let him know through my IM that I wasn't home, and since I didn't know when he planned to bring the older kids home - new time or old time, I just needed an hour notice. Two hours past the new time (8:30 at night - past the 5yos bedtime) my teen called me asking where I was and saying he wanted to come home (my mother answered. I told her not to, but she couldn't stand it. I was pretty upset and knew WH was putting him up to it. Idk what the right thing was for me to do in that situation.). Anyway, I sent word through my IM that is be home in half an hour. I texted my son an hour later asking where he was, and he said he was going to bed. So, yeah WH kept them am extra night rather than communicate through my IM. When the kids came home in the morning, they were upset with me and told me he tried to bring them home twice. Neither of the times was a regular drop off time.

I spoke with my lawyer about all of it. A few things came from that conversation. 1)She agreed with me that since, as WH pointed out, we don't have anything signed yet, he doesn't have to get visitation, and I don't have to let them go with him when he refuses to tell me when he's bringing them back. 2) She's going to try to get a temporary custody/visitation order, and 3)She said he had a right to contact me, only about the kids though. Because of parents' rights. When I pushed her as to why communication through a third party wasn't good enough and what about my rights to not be harassed and manipulated and emotionally abused, she told me that she really didn't have a good answer, but that the two judges in our town both like to tell parents to "suck it up" for the kids. Her legal advice (which she assured me was not the same as her personal, friend advice) is to let him text me about the kids. Because if he pushes it, the judge will side with him. I told her when a judge tells me I have to, I will. But I've been thinking about it. I personally know a woman who went before the same family judge I will go before and lost her daughter. Now, her ex-husband was slime with a really good lawyer, and she tried to represent herself, but still. She was not abusive in any way, and he still managed to get the judge on his side. I don't want to look uncooperative. I want to let WH show his rear end if he wants, while I do nothing that the judge will take offense to.

I thought about getting a burner phone and letting my IM have it. Let WH think it's me. I'm not sure if that will work, or if I may need to get the burner phone and let him text me there, only about the kids, and only until after we go to court. I know he won't. I know that he will jump on that open line of communication, but if he does, I may be able to take that to the judge and mandate third party communication. I just don't know what to do. I will say that I'm not worried about losing any loving feelings for him. I'm more worried about my state of mind and being on edge all the time. But there's no chance of reconciliation. He has just acted like such a jerk, even without being able to say ugly things to me.

So, any advice is welcome. Personally, emotionally, I'm doing pretty well. It's not hurting me anymore when he does these things, just making me mad mostly. And I do wonder how I didn't know he had the capacity for this kind of mess. But mostly I'm just working through my classes, packing to move, living my life.

ginger, he does not have a right to contact you. There is no such "right" in a free country that forces you to be in contact with anyone against your will. There is nothing that he needs to tell you that can't be communicated through a 3rd party. In fact, doing so makes you a better parent, because being in direct contact with an adulterer is so stressful and traumatic that it causes you emotional duress and wears you out emotionally.

After all, you are in Plan B at the advice of a psychologist who has specialized in these situations for 45 years.


He writes about his reasoning for Plan B here:

here


And secondly, you should know that almost ALL waywards refuse to communicate through an IM at some point in Plan B. The reason is because they do not like losing control over the BS. But they do get on board when they realize that they can't communicate otherwise.

Many courts have started practicing "parallel parenting" because of these reasons. You can read about it here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2566139#Post2566139

My suggestion is to stand your ground and tell your attorney that she needs to defend you.

So far that's exactly what I've done, Melody. I told her in these exact words "until a judge tells me I have to, I will not. Period. We can talk about it more, but I will not change my mind."

Then I started thinking about it, of course. She tried to reach his lawyer in Friday with no luck. Hopefully he will give in, but if his lawyer is advising him the way mine is advising me, why wouldn't he push the issue? Has anyone had that happen, where they have ended up in court with a WS complaining to a judge about using an IM? I know in some places the judge has mandated a website of so.e sort, but the BSs have just gotten their IMs to manage it.

Actually, I said this: I understand you are trying to prepare me for what a judge might say. But i need you to understand my position. While I would do anything - ANYTHING - for my kids' sake, I'm not just going to put myself in a position of being treated badly when it is not necessary for them. It would not be better for them to see their dad mistreating their mom over and over and see their mom miserable and hurt on a regular basis and continually subjecting herself to it "for them". And I'd be glad to chat about it, but I'm not going to ever change my mind. And if he somehow convinces a judge that he has to be able to talk to me, I will figure out what to do at that point. Until then, I really need you to understand that I am absolutely not trying to keep them from him in any way, I am just protecting myself.

We have had MANY waywards demand direct contact but it has never gone before a judge yet. It usually only gets as far as the WS attorney insisting on direct contact and the BS attorney shuts him down.

Perfect! And I would add Dr. Harley's comments. He is a clinical psychologist who recommends no contact. I realize it makes uncaring court bureaucrats feel cute to FORCE hostile divorcees to have direct contact, but it is not their ox getting gored. So easy to make such suggestions when they are not the ones being harmed!

In my opinion, your WH has supplied you with precisely the correct verbiage for you to respond with.

As he correctly pointed out, there is no court ordered visitation schedule mandated currently.

As such, you, nor he, are obligated to follow each others plans, or disobeying the At Whim versions of visitation.

FOR THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE CHILDREN, stability is a necessity.

If he will not agree to your proposed schedule, or come up with an agreeable alternative that you are thoroughly in favor of, not just accepting it because that is all that he is willing to initially offer, then you succinctly direct the following schedule.

YOUR SCHEDULE: If you are not willing to accomodate this schedule and provide pick ups and drop offs precisely on time as per our original agreement, then visitation will continuously be made available to you under these terms unless we both agree to allow in advance for any changes or deviations. If you choose to not follow the agreement we both entered into, then you concede your agreed upon allotted visitation times by your own choice and actions.

The schedule outlined above is exactly what we both agreed to until you intentionally deviated from it and improperly refused to bring the children home as per our agreement.

We can both hopefully agree that stability and our childrens best interests are the primary concern. As such, since you have jeopordized their best interests by seeking to punish their Mother by withholding them or not remaining consistent with our agreed upon visitation schedule, they will not be put in further harms way, leaving them with confusion and judgmental misunderstandings until such time that you commit to either our original agreement or an alternative agreeable solution.

As such, since only the schedule of visitations and your acceptance of living up to the terms are our only matter that needs to be discussed, you can respond to our IM to show if you value our childrens well being and not to be just used as pawns in any manner to manipulate the situation for only your own best interests being deemed important.

I look forward to your response of only this issue via our IM.

LTL

Thanks LTL. There really isn't anything for him to discuss with me, even via IM. My lawyer is working to get a temporary court order in place for visitation. I guess I'll send him notice tomorrow (because he would normally pick the kids up tomorrow evening) that as he pointed out, we don't have a signed parenting agreement and until we do, for the sake of the children knowing what to expect and not being used as a way for him to manipulate me, he will not be picking them up. I will probably use some of your wording, because that's exactly right.

The stupid thing is that he dragged me to mediation and now he's saying that the visitation times that he proposed there won't work for him and he doesn't know where I came up with those numbers. For goodness' sake.

I am staying at my mom's house, so I won't have to worry about him coming to try and take them or talk to me. He didn't know where I am. He could probably guess when he sees that I'm not at home, but I doubt he'll want to face my mother.

Gingerfly,

What I have done to avoid this fight is to get it put in the custody stipulation that we must communicate through "My family wizard" which is a court-order software that records all communications and is admissible in court. My IM just checks that. I don't know for sure, but I think knowing it is admissible in court keeps him in line. She very rarely contacts me anymore, so I think he has given up the ghost for the most part.

However, it is a "secret IM" situation, which is not ideal if you want to reconcile. I think the software helps sort of play that role of IM, since they don't want to say anything too crazy (or at least I don't think mine will). However, going to a secret IM makes them think they have access, which isn't great if you still want to reconcile.

Thanks. And isn't that the truth! My lawyer is talking out of both sides of her mouth, telling me that she supports me as long as it's working and she knows I'm not doing anything to inhibit his communication and relationship with the kids, and in the next breath she's telling me that the judge will make me talk to him and her legal advice is to at least communicate via text. I usually love my lawyer, but once in a while it's very obvious that she just really can't understand what I've been through.

I honestly can't even imagine wanting to reconcile. I don't know if I would be able to consider it at all if he did say he wanted to, but I just don't see that happening anyway.

My hope is that he will realize that the IM is the only way to reach me, and start communicating through her again. I am going to just try o take it one day at a time, and if I need to use a secret IM, I will.

He went over a month without seeing his children, apparently emailing me directly the whole time and ignoring anything that I sent via IM. He only started seeing the children again when his lawyer finally responded, last week. He is still not at the right place at the right time and hasn't seen the toddler because he didn't come where and when his lawyer told him to and missed picking her up. He almost missed yesterday's visitation because he was at the wrong place. The only reason he didn't is that my lawyer happened to be at the same park as me, and when she asked if he had come to get the boys and I told her no, she called his lawyer who called him and he came for them.

Now, he has told his lawyer that I am refusing to communicate, "presumably to punish him". He is taking back his offer of assuming the debt from the house because he thinks I have been trashing it. (Nope - I have no room in my life for revenge. That's him projecting.)

I am just so tired of all of this. I am so sincerely over his games and manipulations and general jerkiness.

I am seriously considering breaking my plan b, just to ask him to please use the intermediary. I don't know if that would do any good, but with him using it to make me look uncooperative... I don't know. I did tell my lawyer that I have attempted to communicate via the established channel that we have been using for communication since December 2014 and asked her to make sure his lawyer is aware of that.

It won't do any good and it will just frustrate you. I think that is his goal entirely. You aren't uncooperative at all, you have given him an avenue of contact this entire time. He has not cooperated. Don't reward him by contacting him, it will just embolden him in his resistance.

I understand what you're saying, Melody. I guess I would rather think that he really believes that I am reading any emails he sends me directly and have chosen not to respond and to keep the kids from him, rather than the truth which is: he knew how to contact me all along and chose to hurt his kids rather than communicate via IM.

Have any of you had trouble with a judge who was not understanding of the need for an IM? I know Piglet said she uses a secret IM for this. I'm worried that the judge will agree that I am the one hindering communication. That is another reason I thought about sending him a direct message - reminding him that I don't receive anything directly from him.

Part of the problem, too, is that his lawyer seems to have taken on more cases than she can handle, and she is taking long amounts of time to do anything or respond to anything, and sometimes she messes up (like she "didn't have time to read the whole email" my lawyer sent, and as a result, didn't respond to let us know that WH would be picking up kids, even though she told him to, so he was waiting and I didn't come because I didn't know he was waiting. And she tried to pin it on me, which my lawyer quickly shut down.). But I don't know how many other screw ups or long wait times she has caused that he thinks are my doing.

I think you are borrowing trouble that you don't have. I would not do anything about the IM issue. That is entirely HIS problem, and not yours. *IF* the judge does say something, you can address it at that point. But until that happens, I don't see what the problem is.