My wife and I have been married 21 years. We have 2 children, 9 & 10 years old. We had the type of relationship where we did everything together, we were each other�s best friend, the only thing we did separate was going to work. We had a seriously codependent relationship, both of us. I was controlling, she gave up all her dreams to become what I wanted, etc. Sex was frequent and incredible right up to a week before it came crashing down.

In October we started arguing, lasted almost a week, and then she disappeared with the kids. A few days later I was served with an OFP (Order For Protection). The OFP was a mix of things that I actually did wrong (mostly being controlling), and things that she thought I was doing (perceived other things to be controlling), and a few flat out lies. No physical abuse, ever, and she did not claim that I have.

We agreed out of court. I offered that she could have the house, I would move out, and I would agree to not contact her, for a year! Visitation with the kids was also established. Between attorney�s during this negotiation, I heard that she wanted to reconcile.

2 months went by, a letter through atty�s asked for an update on reconciling, and I received no response. I was concerned she was seeing someone else, though she denied it, and at this point I am guessing she is NOT seeing anyone. I filled out divorce paperwork and had it sent to her. When she received it, she called my mom, all upset because she thought I wanted to reconcile. So, I had another letter sent through atty�s, saying we could go to marriage counseling together, or proceed with the divorce. She answered to proceed with the divorce. But then her atty said he believes she is thinking otherwise. So I offered again, said I am not going to file the divorce paperwork and make any more rash decisions. This time she agreed. I also offered she could see my personal counselor with any questions or concerns she had. She did, but told my counselor that she was concerned that I was so controlling, that I never loved her, and would never change. She said she is not seeing anyone else, doesn�t want to, she is enjoying her freedom. But she seemed to not be interested in counseling, she was concerned I would try to talk her into taking me back even if she didn�t want to, and at this point would rather have no contact with me. By this time 3 months total have gone by since she left.

I am attending a men�s group, formerly known as anger management. It was a recommendation in the OFP, not a requirement, but I signed up as soon as possible and have been trying to learn everything I can, putting my heart and soul into making myself better, for her. My wife said I am only attending because it is required, my mom explained to her that isn�t true.

My mom keeps bringing up things to her about me, trying to convince her to go to counseling, and she never gets upset at my mom, she just tells her things she didn�t like about how I treated her.

So, I wrote a letter of repentance, taking blame, saying how hard it must have been for her to live with me, how I came to the realization of what hurt her, etc. all from the heart. I stated that I would not pressure her into anything, and every decision moving forward is hers. This letter is a violation of the OFP, but I took a chance. A week later my mom asked what she thought of the letter, she said I just relisted all the things she had always told me, no comment on the realization part. I just sent an email talking about what it could be like if we tried again, taking it slow, NOT moving in together for a long time, and a long list of fond memories. It was marked as read shortly after I sent it.

It has been 4 weeks since her original agreement to counseling. I still haven�t received a response, or anything through the atty�s. And 4 months since she left. It sounds like she is on the fence, but I know her mother is influencing her to not go back, her mom did this same thing to her dad. And her friends possibly are also. So I am hoping to be just enough influence to keep others from pushing her away from me.

With the OFP in place, there isn�t a whole lot I can do. I can improve myself all day long, but there�s no way she�d even know, she is being very adamant to completely avoid even seeing me, my parent�s are stuck in the middle for all communication about the children, and for the hand-off of them. She blocked me and my family from her facebook, but I hear it is full of things about how she has been wronged, is suffering, she is too forgiving, etc. It is approaching 4 months now. Anyone have suggestions of something I can try? Or just give up?

I am trying to not be selfish, but it is really hard living with my parent�s, having no access to the kids toys when I have them. There are fourwheelers and snowmobiles, game consoles, Lego�s, etc. at the house. All my income is going into the house she is living in, and the payments on our 2 vehicles, leaving nothing extra to buy new toys for the kids, nothing to even rent a place of my own.

Hi savvy, welcome to Marriage Builders. There is a huge piece missing in your story. What EXACTLY are her complaints about you? What happened during this argument that propelled her to leave and file an OFP?

What EXACTLY are her complaints about you? How EXACTLY are you controlling? Can you give examples? Did you ever lose your temper with her? Will you describe such an incident?

Good questions, I didn't want to put too much into the initial post and it to be overwhelming.

There are numerous example of things I didn't really realize until now were controlling. She would voice an interest in an activity, I would put it down, or suggest something else instead. I didn't like to go out with friends, ever, and I had voiced the same opinion if she seemed interested in it. If she stopped at a store or let the kids play at the playground, and I was at home, I would be upset about it. She had started getting the kids into more activities, which was actually my idea in the first place, but then she seemed to go overboard with it, and I complained.

We were overspending every month and I asked her to reduce the money she spent on movies for example. I would then get upset that she was stopping at Walmart twice a week. The combination of the activities and shopping turned into something going on so often that I became upset about it. I bought this huge house because it is what she wanted, we spent our life accumulating and playing with toys like fourwheelers and a boat and a camper. So, I would say to her, "how much stuff do I need to buy you for you to come home, how nice of a house is going to be good enough for you to want to be here."

She also did most of these activities with the kids without me, as I am such an introvert I didn't like to go.

I installed an app on her phone so we could check where the other was at any time. Multiple issues for why that was, she was accusing me of cheating on her, which I have absolutely never even come close to doing. If I talked to any female, she became insanely jealous, and I'm not even a flirtatious type. So, I was always an open book, and I had no problem with her checking where I was. Anyway, when I was working and knew she was off, I used to text her to see what she was up to, honestly just caring curiosity. The app made it so we wouldn't have to ask, we could just see. Occasionally I would text her noticing where she was, typically following it with a compliment about the activity, and a couple times because I was upset she was shopping again.

Neither of us were good with money, I bought too much big stuff, she bought too much small stuff, part of the reason I would complain about her trips to Walmart.

She wanted to travel, and I didn't. We did do quite a few closer trips, camping or boating or fourwheeling, staying in hotels and swimming, an occasional trip to a water park, etc. But not long trips like she did with her family growing up.

I always thought the coolest thing about her was that she enjoyed mostly the same things I did. I gave in to her wanting ferrets, cats we agreed on. She wanted a dog and I didn't, but I thought she always talked herself out of it. She had a horses when we met, and had to give it up because she moved away with me when I was in college. She still resents me for that apparently, that we never got horses again. She was into fourwheeling when we met, and was very good at it. She grew to love boating and watersports with me, even though she was afraid of the water when we met, so I was pretty proud of her.

She said I would talk until she backed down from voicing her opinion, which is very true, in hindsight.

Oh yes, back to the app... in the OFP she said she felt it was a way I controlled her, and watched her every move. Not sure if that was real, or she just said it to get the OFP, as she occasionally would check on me also. That was never my intent. But the biggest reason for the app for me, was it fed my codependency, which I just realized lately, it gave me comfort to know where she was. I had trouble with going on trips out of town and having to be away from her that long.

She worked only 4 days a week, brought the kids to and from school, and didn't work Friday's so she could keep up with house work. She didn't keep up, and I would complain about it. I would complain that supper was too late, and that we were having pizza for supper about 5 times a week. I would complain that she would sit and play on her phone for hours, instead of getting stuff done.

Not that it is an excuse, but I did work hard, 50-60 hours at work was typical, and I would come home and work on projects right until bed time. I thought I was doing my part correctly, but I am sure this left her feeling like I wasn't helping her. Because I worked so hard, I expected the same from her.

When she voiced concerns about the way I treated her, I looked at her like I had no idea what she was talking about. When she talked about feelings, I would just listen and say nothing.

I did put her down about a lot of things, things that were totally not important. I would get upset if she didn't keep her new van clean, when there was clutter on every lat surface in the house, I was the one who had to organize the pantry or it would never get done, I would organize the kitchen to remove clutter and she would get upset at me.

The start of the argument that led to the end, was her accusing me of cheating on her with a coworker of mine, that she had previously accused me of having an interest in. She was looking at my phone, and I knew she was, and she found a text message she thought sounded suspicious. It was probably the closest thing I have ever said to a female that was flirtatious, I admit, but there was nothing at all going on.

But, she became argumentative and it lasted for about a week. In the middle of it all, she told me, not asked me like she typically would do, she was going to a party. She went, and at 4:00 in the morning when she was still not home and wouldn't answer her phone, I went looking for her. When I got there, she wasn't there, she was out "for a walk". Coincidentally, a guy whose wife left him a month earlier was at the party earlier that night, his son was still at the party, but he wasn't. This guy lives 2 houses down. When my wife finally showed up, from the direction of his house, and left her phone in her van so I couldn't track her, she said "I saw your text, I went for a walk to sober up, and was about to head home." Still not totally sure what to believe. There were a few other questionable things she has done, but she is adamantly claiming she isn't seeing anyone and hasn't. She met with my counselor once, who believed she was being sincere in saying that she is absolutely not seeing anyone, and that she is enjoying her freedom.

Oh boy. Where do I start. The reason I asked you for specific examples of "control" is that very often men are being controlled by their wives and being accused of being "controlling" when they don't go along with her plans. That is the case in your marriage. You gave examples of your wife trying to control YOU by trying to force you do or tolerate things against your will.

Control means forcing your spouse to DO something. It does not include asking your spouse to STOP doing something that bothers you, such as overspending.

You have been guilted for doing what people in good marriages do: they respectfully complain when something makes them unhappy and they have complete transparency in their lives. However, you have been led to believe this is a bad thing.

I am sorry to tell you this, but your wife is very likely having an affair and this is why she kicked you out. She manufactured all these grievances about you to throw you off balance. If you hire a PI, you will find out for sure very quickly.

All the signs of an affair are here: her desire for a separation even though solutions are offered to the "problems," strange complaints that seem devised to keep the betrayed spouse off balance, objections to transparency, staying out late at night.


That is cute, but even a wetbrain can fool a counselor. A cheater is not going to admit it to a counselor. You need to get FACTS, and stop basing your whole life on blind guesses and speculation.

You will find out she is having an affair. When you get the FACTS we can help you save your marriage. I am very sorry to tell you this.

Don't get me wrong, these examples are major love killers in a marriage. But women don't leave over them. In fact, you will notice when you go through the threads here that it takes a massive EFFORT for us to persuade a truly abused woman to leave her husband. It can take YEARS. Your wife was not even abused. So I understand there were things in the marriage that made her unhappy, but women don't separate over this kind of stuff. They separate over affairs, though.

An interesting turn of events. My wife sent the letters I sent her through email, to her atty. So, I guess that is my sign of how to proceed.

I don't know what to think of the possibility of an affair. The guy in question is posting lots of stuff about love and sex on his Facebook. She has been seen going to his house, but months ago. She shared a hotel room with him. She spends a lot of time at the friends house nearby, though it has cut down with time.

The part that makes me wonder otherwise, her mom is staying with her at the house pretty much all the time. Her mom did this to her dad, but he was quite abusive, threatening to burn the house down even. I am sure her mom is encouraging her to stay this path. And the friends house she spends a lot of time at is a big suction of negativity, spreading rumors including about me, etc.

My counselor said that she didn't know if she had an affair, but was convinced that she isn't currently.

There was suspicious stuff when we were first dating. And again when we were married for about 3 years, again a guy who was suddenly single. But there has been nothing for 18 years.

I have asked my atty about hiring a PI, and was told that it would be a violation of the OFP to do anything like that. So now what? And even if I did have proof, what would I do with it? With the OFP in place my options are limited.

Could I claim to have proof and get the same results, or would that be disastrous if I was wrong?

Plus I have already spent $10k trying to communicate through atty's, I don't have much money left.

If she is having an affair. I honestly wouldn't want her back, that's just me.

My wife has complained for years to me about the same issues, but I didn't understand her concern or know how to react, I thought I was acting appropriately. She complained to my family about the issues more than to me. She had told my family that if things didn't change she was going to leave, though she never told me that.

She questioned whether I ever loved her. I question that too, we were best friends but never seemed to connect, which I actually feel bad about. I was hoping for another try to hopefully connect with her. She says I manipulated her into staying, which I wonder if she did feel that way.

She had a history of depression also. I think that played a factor in the lack of connection. She never did seem happy. She was on antidepressants since her teens almost non stop. She was also diagnosed with major depressive disorder, recurrent episodes.

I hate to admit it, as I feel bad about it, but I didn't find her all that attractive to start with, and found her less and less attractive over the years. She has asthma and smokes, skips all meals but eats a huge supper of carbs really late in the day making her quote obese, and generally didn't take care of herself. She dresses in the plainest clothes. And rarely put makeup on. Except she was when she went to her friends house, which was suspicious. Anyway, I also didn't think she was very intelligent, and I consider myself fairly intelligent. The point being that I think my resentment built up over the years and things may have gotten worse.

Part of me feels like maybe we just weren't a good fit, even though we did have a lot in common. But I still chose to be with her. Except last summer, I was somewhat questioning the future of our marriage.

Back in August she was posting on her Facebook about how excited she was to spend 3 days with me for our 20 years anniversary.

And that is perfectly understandable, but in order to make an informed decision you need to get the facts. Right now you don't have the facts. I assure you she is having an affair. You don't have to take my word for it, just hire a PI to tail her for a few days and he will get everything you need to know.


This is an uninformed guess. Any counselor who is experienced in infidelity would tell you to find out for sure, not guess.

I suspect you have been badly gaslighted and don't have the facts that have led to the demise of your marriage. Your marriage broke up for her affair.

But what would I do with the information once I found out? Sounds like I can't do anything to try to stop it?

What you can do with the information is make an informed decision about your future. You can also EXPOSE the affair to friends and family. By keeping the affair a big secret, you are pretty much ensuring the affair proceeds which means you will be dealing with a fogged out wayward wife in your future.

Your children know about the affair, don't they?

In what state can a spouse get a restraining order and get kicked out of his house for simply arguing with his spouse? That makes no sense whatsoever. Even when a spouse files a frivolous RO, it is quickly overturned when it cannot be defended with evidence.

On what grounds did get a RO?

No, at 9 & 10, they seem too innocent to realize what a relationship even means. The wife hangs around these same friends with or without the kids. This guy is always there, as he has no life of his own. He's 51, she's 40. She said "I'm not interested, he's old and has grandchildren", though I suppose she could have just said that. My kids see him rarely, he is friendly to all of his friends kids, so hard to determine a thing from that. I have pried a little to get info from them, if she is or did have an affair, she kept it completely secret from them. If I were a cheater, I suppose I would protect the children from it also, and keep it from them to keep from being exposed.

We really don't have common friends. The friends she is hanging out with, the husband of her friend was a close friend of mine, but is closer friends to the other guy, so he wouldn't tell me if he knew.

Still, how do I hire a PI with the OFP in place? It would be a violation.

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Kids recognize an affair as early as 4. They know it is wrong and just learn to doubt their instincts about right and wrong. It is extremely confusing to kids. Cheaters are sloppy and they don't keep it very secret. She was able to keep it a secret from you by kicking you out.


How would they know? And why is this RO still in place?

That is not the behavior of a cheater.

The grounds for the RO in my county... Cuz a woman wants one, make any claim, and it is granted. Emotional abuse is something that can't be proven. So they grant them with benefit of the doubt. Or so the lawyers told me. So I agreed to not talk to her for 1 year. She also had 2 friends as witnesses to testify, I assume about lies. My atty said that the agreement was by far the best I could hope for, and that having it "without findings" of abuse was huge.

How do Inquestion the children without creating it in their head for them?

I would not suggest doing this at all. I would get the FACTS and then you can speak to your children.

My sister left her marriage without having an affair, because of abuse.

I think my wife is projecting the abuse of her father onto me.

Your wife is not abused, though. She is having an affair.

Ok, all the replies really fed my paranoia, caused me sleepless nights even, but I am confident that my wife is NOT having an affair.

She has told my mom that my children 9&10 have told her I have changed, and tried talking her into changing her mind (got to love kids!). She said that she wants me to learn to be strong on my own, to enjoy the children, and maybe there would be a chance after the divorce, but she doesn't want me to get my hopes up. The kids tell me the wedding pictures are still on the wall, you'd think that would be the first thing to go. She still talks very openly with my mom, just today talked about when we first got married. She said she tells the kids all the time I am a good father.

She wanted ferrets when we were first married, when we got them she didn't seem to spend that much time with them. We got cats, I spent more time with the cats than she did. We were up to 6 ferrets and 4 cats in a one bedroom apartment. She wanted a house, I bought her the house she picked out. She wanted kids, threatened to leave me if I didn't agree, so I agreed. She wanted a different house, I bought her that house. None of this was what I wanted, but I absolutely loved the life, it really was perfect. I believe her depression made her think that all these things would make her happy, but nothing did. And now she decided that being single was the new thing to try.

Her depression was semi severe in hindsight. I always thought she was just not an emotional person, but I am wondering now if she was simply hiding her emotions, and went and cried alone. She rarely smiled, not that I was a bubbly person either.

Every sign points at a midlife crisis, she is struggling to find her identity.
She said menopause was starting
She said her antidepressants were off
A seriously screwed up childhood with a father who really was abusive, and a mother that for the most part abandoned her when she was 14, allowing her to live a fairly wild life
She recently visited a town we lived in together for 4 years during college, and I believe got her first tatoo while there this time
Before she left she said she wanted space, when I wouldn't agree she went the route of an OFP.
She said she wanted to try being single, see if we were better off.
She tells my kids that I am a great father, though is still limiting my visitation to 2 days a week.
New circle of friends... What I would call losers, people I know fairly well, that drink a lot, have OK jobs but still not a pot to piss in, have kids but spoil them and not watch them. She rarely drank before, and didn't do well when she tried.
AC/DC concert, which she used to do before we met but not since until now
She says she is enjoying her freedom

The signs seems to have started well before she left, becoming more interested in activities with the kids outside the house, which went from zero to 5 days a week fairly quickly. And yes, I know absolutely for sure where she was for these activities, a codependent like myself doesn't get by without knowing those things!

I received a definite answer that she is "not interested in marriage counseling at this time," and I immediately had the divorce papers filed with the court... Not out of anger but because I just can't hang in limbo any longer.

I am assuming at this point there is nothing I can do, but go on with my life. She is adamant about her decision to stay away, at least for now. And to tell you the truth, taking the high road all this time, doing everything I can to save the marriage, is really keeping me down, and not allowing my own healing. I would do anything in the world to have my family back together, but I am at a total loss of what I do, or even if I should do something.

What gives you that confidence?